 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Meri
Date: 1999-11-17 20:45
I've been looking for a good explanation as to why reverse ligatures are better than normal ones. I know that it partly has to do with the fact that the pressure on the reed is more even on a reverse ligature, but it doesn't offer a complete explanation, because I know it is not totally psychological.
Where can I find an explanation of the reverse ligature phenomenon?
Meri
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Author: Drew
Date: 1999-11-17 22:02
You will get disagreement on whether reverse/inverted ligatures are superior to standard ligatures. I take lessons from a retired professional symphonic clarinetist, who uses a standard lig which has worked for him for over 60 years. I use an inverted lig, and know players who use shoestrings as ligs!
If you take a look at a musical instrument catalog or go to a music store, you'll see all kinds of ligatures. If one type was really superior, everyone would buy the same thing (how boring!). We are all different, so differnt things work for me that won't work for you. As has often been stated on this board, "your mileage may vary." Most clarinetists have a lig collection lurking somewhere......
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Author: Al
Date: 1999-11-17 22:53
Most reverse ligatures have "ribs" which come in contact with the center of the butt of the reed. This prevents the circular body of the ligature from coming in contact with the sides of the reed, thus preventing crimping the sides of the reed. Reverse ligatures also tighten in the front of the mouthpiece, in effect pulling the reed to the table. This prevents any squeezing of the screws against the reed. That's the best I can do.
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Author: Al
Date: 1999-11-17 22:59
ADDENDA:
Drew's comments are not to be taken lightly. Some players still "wrap" with string. Others will use some kind of fabric ligature. It's what works for you--physically or psycologically.
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Author: Hiroshi
Date: 1999-11-17 22:59
Although I think there is no authentic pro-description of inverted ligature, you can read surely how the ligature should hold the reed in Klarinet archive by key words, reed,or ligature: Mr.Galper wrote,I remember,that ligature should hold the reed on the top of reed stock not its side to obtain freer vibration and to tighten only the lower screw and let the upper one loose.
As to why some people stick to a metal conventional ligature, I read a pro wrote like this: "Inverted ligature has a tendency to let the reed vibrate freer but there is a bottle neck to this. Even when the reed loses its ability by using for long, it vibrates still. The player does not know this. Then all of a sudden,it stops to work.On the other hand traditional uninverted ligature tells the player exactly the present condition of the reed,i.e.whether it is losing performace or not. But this is my feeling. I do not like to impose this on other players."
I myself think that by traditional ligature I feel I can micro-adjust the reed vibration condition by upper/lower screws fastening force than inverted ligatures.
Also I feel very thick heel reeds such as Vandoren V12,Marca Traditional,Zonda,Alexander Classic,and Rico Grand Concert Thick Blank work better with inverted ones,whereas traditional heel thickness reeds work better with traditional ligatures:I like Bonade traditional.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 1999-11-18 00:39
Hiroshi wrote:
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Mr.Galper wrote,I remember,that ligature should hold the reed on the top of reed stock not its side to obtain freer vibration and to tighten only the lower screw and let the upper one loose.
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Abe Galper also puts the reed lower on the mouthpiece than anyone I've _ever_ seen. I found it almost impossible to play when he adjusted my reed position to his liking.
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Author: Peter
Date: 1999-11-18 01:53
Meri,
I'm not sure how far I can go here without advertising my own product, but I will try. Conventional ligatures, when tightened, tend to squeeze the reed together, as well as against the mouthpiece. Ideally the reed should be held firmly in place without squeezing the reed fibres together, which would of course inhibit free vibration. A reverse ligature would accomplish this more effectively than a standard one. To elaborate more, I believe that a ligature should be made of metal. Any soft material will absorb the highs, which takes away from the full range of desirable vibrations that the reed is making. The reed **AND THE MOUTHPIECE** should be left to vibrate as freely as it can while still being held securely in place. That is why the most desirable ligatures have very little that touches the reed or the mouthpiece. One other reason for considering a reverse ligature is that with some players who play close in to their body, the screws on the conventional ligature touch ones chin, which can be annoying and distracting.
I could say more, but had better stop before this becomes a thesis! By the way, nothing replaces lots of practise!!
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Author: HIROSHI
Date: 1999-11-18 02:27
Mark wrote:
Abe Galper also puts the reed lower on the mouthpiece than anyone I've _ever_ seen. I found it almost impossible to play when he adjusted my reed position to his liking.
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Now I understood why he set his ligature so low on the mouthpiece as written in his posting!
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Author: Dee
Date: 1999-11-18 03:44
HIROSHI wrote:
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Mark wrote:
Abe Galper also puts the reed lower on the mouthpiece than anyone I've _ever_ seen. I found it almost impossible to play when he adjusted my reed position to his liking.
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Now I understood why he set his ligature so low on the mouthpiece as written in his posting!
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Oh there could be other reasons. I personally tend to set my reed a bit high and my ligature a bit low. This seems to let me have good tone quality with more volume. I find that moving the ligature down gives me an increase in volume.
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Author: Geoff
Date: 1999-11-18 04:29
Peter,
I know you were trying not to advertise your
floating rail ligature, but I would really love
to know or hear the design philosophy of this
great ligature and the design process or any
modification since the publish of this ligature.
thank you
Geoff
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Author: J. Calhoun
Date: 1999-11-18 14:27
I have had experience with changing from the Rovner to a standard ligature. What I find with all my reeds is that there is a tendency to collapse into the mouthpiece window and thus warp. The edges of the reed lift up from the table. Sanding is no help, because the warpage is enough that there wouldn't be any reed left by the time I got it flat.
With that as background, you can see that getting a good seal between the reed and the rails of the mouthpiece is an issue for me. When I changed away from the Rovner ligatures I have used for 20 years, I found this problem of maintaining the seal got dramatically worse. I attribute this to the higher stiffness of the metal ligature, and the fact that it only contacts any given reed in a few points. (those points will vary from reed to reed due to variations in reed shape) So you tighten up the metal ligature, and in a few minutes the reed swells and changes shape, and the metal ligature fails to keep it tightly pressed against the table. In my opinion, the fabric lig has better follow-on force and will tend to keep the reed pressed against the mouthpiece better. I would expect that a metal ligature of the reverse type would be closer to the Rovner in that respect, and the standard ligature would be the worst.
And finally, I seem to have the exact oppposite results with "loosening and shifting" the ligature. I always hear, move the ligature down, don't tighten it too much, to get the best response. In my experience, that makes the chance of leaks between the reed and the table much higher. And any leak there will definitely harm response. So, unless the reed is exactly perfect as to back side flatness, and that perfect flatness never varies through absorption and loss of moisture in the reed (pretty darn unlikely), I would propose that moving the ligature down will most likely DEGRADE response. I typically put the lig on as high as it will go, to give it and the reed the best chance at forming and maintaining that seal.
Finally, I don't believe the part of the reed that is clamped to the table of the mouthpiece can do any significant vibrating, when compared to the part that is separated from the facing and sticking up into the air stream.
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Author: paul
Date: 1999-11-18 16:34
Okay, I'll admit my ignorance. I only have standard metal ligs. Someday, I'll have to fetch a reverse or a cloth lig to find out what the fuss is all about.
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Author: Peter
Date: 1999-11-18 20:04
To Geoff & J.,
It is hard to comment on your querries without also promoting my ligature and I understand that this is not the place for such promotion. You have both asked some valid questions plus I had an email from someone in Australia with more thoughts. I will be glad to answer all of these good questions, but only after I see a coomment from Mark, 'the keeper of the keys to this web kingdom' giving further comments by me his blessing!
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 1999-11-18 21:07
Peter wrote:
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I will be glad to answer all of these good questions, but only after I see a coomment from Mark, 'the keeper of the keys to this web kingdom' giving further comments by me his blessing!
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To Peter & other manufacturers who read here:
Advertising "per se" isn't welcome, but answers to questions about your products certainly are!
For example, if someone posts a :
"I have the best reeds in the world! Email me at whoever@here.there - Joe Schmoe" I'll delete it.
But, if there's a question like
"I like Joe Schmoe's reeds. How does he shape them?" and Joe Schmoe tells us how he does it - wonderful! It's a bit more subtle an advertisement, and it also opens up the discussion to people who may disagree [politely].
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Author: Peter
Date: 1999-11-19 02:04
Geoff, J & K,
The main idea behind my 'Floating Rail Ligature" was to hold the reed securely in place while puting exactly equal preasure on four points on the reed no matter how irregular the bark is. I wanted to do all of this with the tightening of only one screw on top and in addition having very little of the ligature touching the reed or mouthpiece so as to allow maximum vibration. One of my original prototypes, from 10 years ago now and which I played on professionally for about 6 months, actually had a tiny ball and socket joint within it to help accomplish what I was after. I was not concerned AT ALL with cost, I just wanted to make the best ligature possible. As with anything else with the clarinet, if something is better than any other there is a demand for it. There have been some minor changes since the first ones went on the market, but the basic design is the same. Now there are principal clarinet players in major North American Orchestras that have this a their ligature of choice and feel that anything else would be most inadequate! If you would like to see some comments by some leading North American players and teachers check out < www.pspriggs.com >
To answer more questions, any ligature should hold the reed firmly on the bark area in at least 4 positions and not directly above the window. These positions must be such that they do not permit the reed to be held anything other than securely against the table throughout the total area of the reed (the area with bark) that is touching the mouthpiece. A sqeeking reed may result if this is not so.
Re ligature position up and down, it should be generally an equal distance between the bottom of the reed and where the bark ends. It should also be generally an equal distance from each side. Obviously the part of the reed that vibrates the most is the tip and would vibrate less and less closer to the bottom. However, these lesser vibrations may be just what makes the difference between a good sound and a great sound, so you don't want to cut off vibration in this area altogether. As I have stated previously, I belive that a ligature can also inhibit the vibration occurring in the mouthpiece. Vibration is what we are after and that is also the reason that metal is better as it absorbs less vibration than softer materials. One last thing I will say could be a tip for some and that is, as you are placing the reed on the mouthpiece and making sure it is even from side to side at the tip, also do the same at the bottom of the reed.
And now, back to the workbench!
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