 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: clarigirl
Date: 2003-12-02 01:08
Here's the age old question about anchor tonguing; sort of. I tongue with the part of my tongue about 1/4 of an inch up frmo where the taste buds start. Did that make any since? Anyways, is that still considered anchor tonguing?
-Nao
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2003-12-02 02:09
I believe anchor tonguing is where the tip of your tongue rests on your lower lip. That's the problem I have lately (only last month did I even realize I'm doing it) and am working on rectifying at the moment, with some success. Unless my problem is something else...?
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2003-12-02 13:56
clarigirl -
Anchor tonguing is when you lock the tip of your tongue behind your lower teeth and push forward with the back of your tongue to make it hit the reed. The spot on your tongue that hits the reed is maybe 3/8 inch back from the tip. If the tip of your tongue is not turned down and tucked behind your teeth, then you're not anchor tonguing.
"Tip-to-tip" doesn't mean using the very tip of your tongue. As long as the tip of your tongue is free, and you're moving the forward part rather than your whole tongue, it's perfectly OK to make contact a little way back.
If you are anchor tonguing, see my explanation and exercises for switching at http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=6899&t=6887
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2003-12-02 18:40
I still would like to hear opinions from non American people about the "problem" with what they call Anchor Tonguing. Is there an official name for it in any other language? I have studied clarinet for nine years when I was younger (not in the US) and have had a professional career for more than 20 years now and never heard of the way you discribe "anchor tonguing" being a problem.
My experience from European countries is that they give more freedom to students to tongue in whatever way works best for each individual. I have colleagues who fall well into the description of anchor tonguers and they are doing fine. I know a girl who's tonguing with the back of the tongue because it works best for her and she sounds fine. Another friend again, has a tongue where the tip is not free, the "string" underneath goes all the way to the tip. Shuld he tip-to-tip tongue? Forget it. He has no problems "anchor tonguing". My closest colleague is tonguing left-to-right in quick passages because he discovered that when he was a kid and develloped that technique to perfection. He doesn't need double tongue.
Who set the standards historically about tip-to-tip tonguing in the US? Is it like the story about one of the first famous oboists who had an overbite, so thats the reason why most American oboists ever since play with the oboe pointing down.
Why do they force tip-to-tip tongue on every student in the US, meaning that everything else is pariah. We're all different with different reflexes working different for each individual. Do what works the best for you with a little bit of guidence from a FLEXIBLE teacher. Don't take for granted that t-to-t tongue is the best for everybody.
Alphie
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Author: Heidi
Date: 2003-12-03 04:54
This has been an interesting post. Personally, I anchor tongue--I just really figured it out about 3 weeks ago. I have a harder time within the smaller variations of articulations, but otherwise I tongue pretty well. My teacher described it to me exactly the same way--tip of the tongue stuck behind my back teeth. It happens. It's better than some of the students I've seen "tongueing" by closing off their throat.
It seems to work for me, although my teacher told me never to volunteer the information unless someone asks. (assumingly he was joking) I've tried it on the tip and that just feels wierd and sounds bad..which I know will happen with any new technique, but if you're good at something as it is, why change it??
Just a thought,
Heidi
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Author: graham
Date: 2003-12-03 08:13
What I am not quite getting with this debate is whether there is any deliberate school of "anchor tonguing", which is to say whether it is ever taught from the outset as the way to do it. Does any teacher in any country say to the pupil: "Now we will learn to tongue. First, put the tip of the tongue firmly behind the lower teeth. It must stay there all the time. Then gently push the rest of the tongue forward and upwards until it meets the reed ..." etc. etc.? Certainly I doubt that any teachers in the UK say that. What seems always to come out of these threads is that someone found that they had developed this technique and now they see no reason to change it. On that point I am strongly inclined to agree, but I am not clear on whether it is taught as a recognised technique from the beginning. Any clarification would be welcome.
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2003-12-03 08:56
I think all teachers shuld explain the principles of tonguing. To relax and lightly touch the reed with the tongue saying "de-de-de" and see what comes naturally. Always listend carefully and give suggestions to improve the sound and attack. Everybody have to be treated individually. A teacher who's trying to impose his/her own ideas all the time without investigating the students individual possibilities is doing more harm than good.
A classic example is teaching flutter-tongue in Germany and France. They insist that the flutter shuld come from the throat. This works for French and Germans who have this sound naturally in their language, but is impossible for italians, spanyards and scandinavians who have a "rrroooling rrrrrr" in their language. Just an example of inflxible teaching.
Another is trumpet teaching. I have a friend who was told all his life that he shuld play from the center of his lips. He failed for years. Doing it his own way, he develloped his embushure at the very right side corner of his mouth, became principal trumpet at the opera and is now making himself a nice international carrere.
There are many various ways of starting a note on a clarinet. There is no "orthodox" way. There are many rights and many wrongs. Don't rigidly impose your own ideas on students in arias you can't see. Listen and learn, investigate and come with suggestions that suit the individual.
Alphie
Post Edited (2003-12-03 10:09)
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2003-12-03 09:22
I can say de-de-de-de in 120 on the metronome and oy-oy-oy-oy in 160! Both have a good sounding result on the clarinet. Shuld I "anchor tongue" or "tip-to-tip" tongue?
Alphie
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Author: graham
Date: 2003-12-03 14:30
Isn't that a bit too vague Alphie? OK, if a person encounters a technical problem with the conventional way of doing something, perhaps a teacher should try plan B or even plan C. But just saying to a pupil "Do it how you fancy and lets see what comes out" is rather leaving the matter to chance. I would still like to know if anyone actually teaches anchor tonguing as a technique. I have no criticism to make. I would just like to know.
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2003-12-03 17:26
There is no answer as far as I know in the European way of teaching (no Europeans are entering the discussion to share their experiences) to your question if somebody teaches "anchor tonguing" or not. The way I play and many with me is one way of several basic ways of starting a note on a clarinet.
If you ask someone how they tongue you would normally expect one of the two ways we're discussing for an answer. They are the two most common techniques.
Since you have very little control over what happens inside the cavity and kids have difficulties explaining exactly what they're doing it's basically up to the teachers ear to, after basic instructions, decide how to go on based on the sound and the progress. What comes out is hopefully something that works and sounds good.
What I don't like in the description of "anchor tonguing" is that you "lock the tongue behind the teeth" and "stopping the airflow". This might occur if the tongue is too tense, but that could happend with other techniques as well.
In my case the tongue is resting in it's natural possition like saying "aaah". The spot that touches the reed will be where the tip of the reed ends up inside the mouth. The staccato is produced by a controlled "rattle" forth and back by the tongue. This works fine and sounds good.
If, a student is locking the tongue behind the teeth and making a "lump" that stops the air flow, it comes from too much tention in the muscle. Than the teacher shuld concentrate on relaxation instead of changing a technique that was maybe meant to be.
Alphie
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Author: Gary Van Cott
Date: 2003-12-03 22:15
My teacher taught anchor tonguing (late 1950s). I do not know if he taught it to all his students. His way of describing it was to make the sound na - na - na. This was in California. He was originally from Chicago, I believe.
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Author: Heidi
Date: 2003-12-04 00:21
I agree with Alphie....Anchor tongueing in my case is because that's where my tongue naturally sits in my mouth. My teacher didn't ever teach me this way...it just happened with me and I can do it pretty well.
I've never heard of any anchor tongueing "schools" in the US..but I'm only 22 and am in undergrad school.....so my experience is limited. My teacher says Ricardo Morales anchor tongues and John Denman used too...correct me if I'm wrong please, because I don't want to say something that's not true.
The debate continues I suppose. It works for me...that's all I know.
My two cents worth,
Heidi
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2003-12-04 09:42
I wish that the expression "anchor tonguing" could mark something that is produced wrong, instead of being the shameful name of a technique that in my opinion shuld be fully accepted. We're all different and reflexes work differently for different people.
My impression in Europe is that both techniques are fully accepted. Both are orthodox. How you start using one or the other depends, I think, on how moveable the tip of your tongue is.
If the "string" underneath (give me a good word in English, "chord"?) goes too far towards the tip it makes it very difficult to t-to-t tongue. If such a student has learned from the beginning that t-to-t is the only way and the only accepted technique, it's the obligation for the next teacher to impose "the other" technique since progress is basically impossible otherwise.
I would like to introduce the term "Nature Tongue" for "the other" technique. "Anchor tongue" is "nature tongue" with too much tension.
Nature tongue is very relaxed and starts with the tongue resting in it's natural possition saying "aaah". With the mouthpiece in place, find the nearest spot where the reed touches the tongue. Say: ye-ye-ye-ye. Not go-go-go-go, that's too much tension and the tongue is too high and would be called "anchor tongue".
If this works better and faster than saying de-de-de-de, it could be that the "chord" is too long and that this technique works better for you.
How's that?
Alphie
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