 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: diz
Date: 2003-11-30 21:06
I've got a huge orchestration job to start over the Christmas break (can't wait). And have been given carte blanche for the instruments (so long as I keep to a specific number).
In order to maximize the number of instruments in the pit and minimise the number of players - I think I've got to score it "a la broadway" with doublings. My question is - what is the commonest thing for flutes and oboes to double onto (apart from the obvious - piccolo and cor anglais)? Would you reasonably expect a flute or oboe player to have some basic facility on clarinet?
I guess what I'm getting at is - is it reasonable to expect a flute player to play saxophone (alto) or clarinet or both, and what about a bassonist?
Help is sought, thanks.
Without music, the world would be grey, very grey.
Post Edited (2003-11-30 21:10)
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2003-11-30 21:43
Diz - You should get a lot of help in answer to your ? from our regular posters, the Johns, Jack, Marks, Kens etc, since most of us have played many musicals, doubling on 2 to 5? insts which different individual can handle. I've had as many as 4 at a time, cl, oboe, A sax, bass cl, other times tenor/bari saxes, BUT no bassoon or flute. Its VERY individual. Ask your available musicians what they can and will play! Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Mark Pinner
Date: 2003-11-30 22:09
I would be looking at flute/pic and alto sax. If you slot some oboe onto this chair if the person can't play it they can substitute flute at a pinch, call it, say, reed 1. Keep the alto on this part to the secondary line where possible as the player may not be a specialist. The lead alto would probably best be in reed 2 doubling clarinet and a secondary flute part. Reed 3 and 4, interesting chairs, it depends on whether any tenor sax parts are of crucial importance or oboe/cor is more important and of course whether there is improvisation required. Clarinet could be included in one of these books and bassoon is an option but is best as a single instrument chair. Reed 5, urrggghhh!, if you are using baritone sax it should be here. Be careful of doubling bassoon with anything, especially baritone sax. Logistical nightmare and not very effective. Reed 5 is best on baritone, bass clari and clari. The other option is just to use single orchestral woodwinds with one chair doubling a saxophone and bass clarinet. My suggestion is no more than 2 instruments (flute/pic count as one as do oboe/cor) per chair, this is not high orchestral art we are talking about, so a skeleton staff is all you need. A good line up might be Reed 1, alto sax and flute/pic, Reed 2 alto sax, clarinet, Reed 3 tenor sax, clarinet, Reed 4 tenor, oboe/cor Reed 5 baritone sax, bass clarinet. Alto sax and clarinet leads to Reed 2, possibly some impro and impro to reed 3. You can write whatever you want but some of the broadway style books are ridiculous, they were often orchestrated with one particular player in mind. One bar changes from cor anglais to clarinet are bound to encourage nothing other than mediocrity, especially with amateur players.
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Author: diz
Date: 2003-11-30 23:26
I'm not talking about "high orchestral art" - Mark - rather the maximum number of different gadgets deemed reasonable for a larger orchestral sound with a smaller number of players - thanks, though - you've given me some ideas. Also - I do understand the need to allow time at change over.
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Author: John J. Moses
Date: 2003-12-01 00:16
Hi Diz:
Congratulations on your orchestration gig! Don't ever let them call you an "arranger," the big guys hate that title.
Having worked with Johnny Tunick, Doug Besterman, Billy Brohn, Michael Starobin, and Danny Troub, to name the big guys, my advice is write for the instruments you "hear." The doublers will play the horns you write for. If your players can't cover a part, they'll talk to you about it or move it around to someone who can handle it.
The big guys almost always speak to us about the doubles they are thinking about. I've been asked to play, in addition to lead clarinet, penny whistles, recorders, flutes, saxophones, contra, basset horn, and other assorted toys. It's what the individual orchestrator heard in the score that he puts into the parts, we always try to accommodate his needs.
Most good doublers can cover single reeds (clarinets & saxes), flutes, and some toys. Others specialize on oboe, EH, saxes, and toys, or bassoon, contra, bari, & bass clarinet. Again, write for what you hear and your doublers will play those horns. Anything really too far out will be sent back to you for a revision, or a needed instrument change.
I can't tell you how many times we've gotten phone calls from the great orchestrators, asking about a certain instrument and whether or not it's possible to write it into our parts.
Discuss your ideas with your doublers, write with specific players in mind, if you can, and take suggestions from them when you need help.
FYI: at WICKED, my current Broadway show, has 4 doublers, the chairs are:
Reed 1, flute, piccolo, alto flute, soprano recorder, penny whistle (in Eb)
Reed 2, oboe, EH, bass oboe
Reed 3, clarinet, Eb clar., bass clar., soprano sax
Reed 4, bassoon, bari sax, bass clar., clarinet, flute
Each part was written with a particular doubler in mind, so our parts were "tailor made" for us by Billy Brohn...we were lucky.
Good luck to you and your doublers,
JJM
Légère Artist
Clark W. Fobes Artist
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Author: diz
Date: 2003-12-01 01:23
John J. Moses ... thanks for your posting - I think i'll need to talk to the MD, figure out personnel and then "tailor make" it to suit. For example, Mark Pinner happens to play all the saxes (including the melody C) plus an assortment of clarinets and bassoon. So I'd definately have him in mind. Thanks again, just what I needed to hear.
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2003-12-01 03:15
Yeah, diz...
For the Nutcracker we're doing...everything was tailor-made. I'm on clarinets and flute, we have an accordion (one of the best ways to get a big sound is if you have a great accordion player-they're almost an orchestra in and of themselves)...I did the 7 Tchaik segments. REally tough to get an entire orchestra into 2 fiddles, clarinet/flute, accordion, trombone, and gudulka...
We also have a bass player, a couple of guys who play many things, and a percussionist.
Of course, this is a "folk" Nutcracker, with only bits of the Tchaik score thrown in amongst interesting Hungarian and German and Bulgarian and Chinese bits, so we have to have some interesting instruments anyway...
Katrina
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Author: diz
Date: 2003-12-01 03:21
Fortunately I should be able to get 6 "Reed" players ... plus the obligatory brass (6) and a small core of strings and one "jack of all trades" percussionist.
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Author: John J. Moses
Date: 2003-12-01 12:33
Diz:
If you do get 6 Reed chairs, then perhaps you could go for:
Reed 1, flute, piccolo, alto flute (as needed), possible alto sax?
Reed 2, oboe, EH, possible tenor sax?
Reed 3, alto sax, clar., flute (sop.sax, as needed)
Reed 4, tenor sax, clar., Eb clar., flute (as needed)
Reed 5, alto &/or tenor sax, clar., flute &/or oboe (as needed)
Reed 6, (the kitchen sink, just kidding), bari sax, bassoon, bass clar., clar.
All your doublers will be able to play some "toys," so spread them around.
These suggestions are not etched in stone, so go with what you "hear."
JJM
Légère Artist
Clark W. Fobes Artist
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Author: William
Date: 2003-12-01 16:39
But if your on a budget and only have two reeds--like the newly written musical we are premeiring this month ("Heartland")--the doubling is as follows:
Reed One: flute, piccolo, sopranino recorder, oboe
Reed Two: clarinet, tenor sax, bass clarinet (low C extention required)
( I am letting the percussionist play my shacker egg for free)
Other Books: (seven musician pit)
Violin, Cello, Horn, Percussion (washboard through tympani) and Piano.
So far, all the New York personal--musical director, orchestrator, composer, producer, and rookie conductor who will finally conduct the 29 performances scheduled--have been present at all rehearsals. It's been like playing for a college jury for my semester grade. We meet the New York cast tonight--kind of a big deal for a "little town" player like me!! Good luck with your project (and in finding someone who can double on kitchen sink)
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Author: allencole
Date: 2003-12-01 16:56
There is one consideration that hasn't been touched on. Diz, where are you located--and how is the supply of available reed players? If you are in New York, and paying union wages you have tremendous possibilities (although too many doubles per player might drive salaries over budget).
If you are in a smaller city, you may want to keep things fairly simple. Note Don Berger's post. Here in Richmond, we are short on doublers and most theatre venues are non-union, which mean wages inadequate to attract versatile players.
In venues here, I have seen two approaches. One is to cut and paste things extensively so that doubles are shuffled to the right players. Never more than three instruments per player, and double reed parts generally covered on some type of clarinet or saxophone. Another approach has been to re-orchestrate the show for known available players. I recently went to see Once Upon a Mattress with an orchestra of 3 flutes, two clarinets and rhythm section. No brass. Sounded great.
Unless you have an endless supply of hungry musicians lined up, you might do well to see who's actually available to play and what they bring to the table.
Allen Cole
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Author: diz
Date: 2003-12-01 20:18
Allen Cole ... thanks for your comments, I will hand pick the musicians for this one I hope - still negotiating with the company's MD, they are all professional and there is no need to "dumb down" the parts because we are in Sydney not New York. You might just be surprised at the quality of music in this part of the world.
John J. - thanks also for your listing ... it's now in the back of my mind as a suitable weapons cache for the pit.
Without music, the world would be grey, very grey.
Post Edited (2003-12-01 21:08)
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Author: Mark Pinner
Date: 2003-12-01 20:57
Don't forget to include the piano accordian and banjo, maybe there is somebody out there who can double these 2. My comment about "high orchestral art" was merely made to point out that full sectional scoring, or in other words having 2 clarinets, 2 flutes, 2 oboes etc. is not necessary. It is effect you are after, which you pretty well defined yourself, so we are not in disagreement. Great comment on the dumbing down, we don't need it. Anybody that can double on as many instruments as are being proposed is probably a Mensa candidate, or all thumbs! (Bassoon Joke)
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Author: diz
Date: 2003-12-04 02:04
Thanks for all your comments ... I now had an initial chat with the MD and told "that person" that we need to discuss actual players and who owns what so that I don't waste my valuable time painting a beautiful soundscape and having it ruined by not having the instruments available. I have a lengthy meeting with ... on Friday night to discuss the whole issue of whose playing for the three blocks of shows for next year.
Thanks especially to John J. for his professionalism and candour
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Author: Lisa
Date: 2003-12-04 03:39
diz,
I don't know if this will help you or not, but it's worth a try. Go to the site below, click on any show, scroll down, and it spells out for you the instrumentation of every pit book. Click on several shows that you recognize, since not all shows have the same needs.
http://www.tams-witmark.com/musical.html
Best of luck!
Post Edited (2003-12-04 03:39)
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Author: John J. Moses
Date: 2003-12-04 13:05
Wow! Great site Lisa. I learn something all the time on this great BB!
But...they list the instrumentation for TITANIC as follows:
Reed I: Piccolo, Flute, Alto Flute (or Clarinet)
Reed II: Oboe and English Horn (or Clarinet)
Reed III: Clarinet
Reed IV: Flute and Clarinet
Reed V: Bassoon and E-flat Contrabass Clarinet (or Bassoon)
On Broadway we actually played:
Reed 1: no clarinet
Reed 2: no clarinet
Reed 3: Clarinet, Eb Clarinet, Bass Clarinet (I moved the contra to Reed 5)
Reed 4: Flute, Clarinet, Piccolo
Reed 5: Bassoon, Clarinet, Eb Contrabass Clarinet
So, be aware, they are not perfect with the instrumentation thing!
JJM
Légère Artist
Clark W. Fobes Artist
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