 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: Margaret Copeland
Date: 1999-11-15 13:51
Is anyone out there playing a B-C Greenline clarinet? I'm interested in possibly purchasing a Greenline oboe but I'm not familiar with the B-C mechanism. I really want an oboe that can stay adjusted and have no idea about the quality and balance of the keys. Also how do Greenline owners like the sound ?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Kathy Beatty
Date: 1999-11-15 18:43
I don't know anything about the B-C mechanism. The Greenline Bb clarinet is (as I understand) identical in every way to the standard R-13 clarinet, except for the body material. I love the sound of it, but haven't made comparisons to any other professional model clarinets (it's MUCH better than the several student models I have, but that's comparing apples and oranges). What I love most about it is that it will not crack. Living in a high and dry climate like I do, I never have to worry about this problem that seems to plague wood clarinet owners.
I can't wait until Buffet makes a Greenline Eb - soon, I've heard. Never say never, but I'll probably never buy another new, professional quality wooden instrument if I can get the equivalent in a non-crackable material, be it Greenline, PVC (as I've heard Howarth's produces), or whatever.
If you check the klarinet archives (search for Greenline), you'll see that nearly everyone who has a Greenline is very much sold on them. One or two people seem to think they are heavier than wood R-13s, but I don't notice this to be a problem at all. My Greenline feels about the same weight as my old no-name wood student instrument. But as I said, I don't have a wood R-13 with which to compare.
Kathy
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Eoin
Date: 1999-11-16 08:01
Is the Greenline option just a way of selling high quality plastic clarinets to people who wouldn't touch plastic?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Mark Charette
Date: 1999-11-16 12:17
Eoin wrote:
-------------------------------
Is the Greenline option just a way of selling high quality plastic clarinets to people who wouldn't touch plastic?
--------
Basically - yes. Also - Buffet-Crampon currently makes less money on a Greenline than a regular clarinet. They had to build a new line for them; their old machinery, used to make the grenadilla clarinets, can't turn the material. Since the old machinery has been around a lot longer its cost had already been amortized.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Graham Elliott
Date: 1999-11-16 15:27
I may have got the wrong end of the stick somewhere along the line but I thought Greenline was not plastic but reconstituted timber made from off cuts of Grenadilla with some binding substance, and therefore slightly denser than the wood equivalent. If so it explains the name, because this is an environmentally sound use of the left over wood, a good deal of which would otherwise be wasted. If so then in theory it should share the characteristics of wood.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Mark Charette
Date: 1999-11-16 15:48
Graham Elliott wrote:
<br>-------------------------------
<br>If so it explains the name, because this is an environmentally sound use of the left over wood, a good deal of which would otherwise be wasted. If so then in theory it should share the characteristics of wood.
<br>--------
<br>It is sawdust & binder, which may be considered a plastic (the ratio of filler to binder is higher than "traditional" plastic, though).
<br>
<br>As to having the same properties as wood - not by a long shot! It is tougher, harder, has no grain (and all the properties of extensibility, compressibility, etc. that are different longitudinally and latitudinally that goes with that), etc.
<br>
<br>It is a totally different material than wood.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Graham Elliott
Date: 1999-11-16 17:00
I was not sufficiently clear. I was refering to the likely sound, as mentioned in the opening message. No doubt it resists cracking and warping etc. But I have not played it, so see Ken Shaw's comment under "plastic clarinet" elsewhere on the board where he says the way it plays is hard to distinguish from the wooden version.
Mark Charette wrote:
-------------------------------
Graham Elliott wrote:
-------------------------------
If so it explains the name, because this is an environmentally sound use of the left over wood, a good deal of which would otherwise be wasted. If so then in theory it should share the characteristics of wood.
--------
It is sawdust & binder, which may be considered a plastic (the ratio of filler to binder is higher than "traditional" plastic, though).
As to having the same properties as wood - not by a long shot! It is tougher, harder, has no grain (and all the properties of extensibility, compressibility, etc. that are different longitudinally and latitudinally that goes with that), etc.
It is a totally different material than wood.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Mark Charette
Date: 1999-11-16 17:05
Graham Elliott wrote:
-------------------------------
I was not sufficiently clear. I was refering to the likely sound, as mentioned in the opening message. No doubt it resists cracking and warping etc
----
Graham,
Many people believe that the material properties of wood are required to make a clarinet sound "right".
The material that a Greenline uses has almost no properties the same a "natural" wood.
That being the case, what would the "likely sound" be?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Eoin
Date: 1999-11-16 19:03
Mark Charette wrote:
-------------------------------
Many people believe that the material properties of wood are required to make a clarinet sound "right".
-------------------------------
But has science shown that people are wrong in their belief? I think there was a study that showed that you could make a clarinet out of cardboard or concrete and it would still sound the same.
Eoin
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Mark Charette
Date: 1999-11-16 19:47
Eoin wrote:
-------------------------------
Mark Charette wrote:
-------------------------------
Many people believe that the material properties of wood are required to make a clarinet sound "right".
-------------------------------
But has science shown that people are wrong in their belief? I think there was a study that showed that you could make a clarinet out of cardboard or concrete and it would still sound the same.
----
A flute out of concrete (or cement, I don't remember which), not a clarinet. But not cardboard. The material must be of a certain stiffness and density.
However, that doesn't change people's beliefs.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Dee
Date: 1999-11-16 23:18
In addition to Mark's comments on the Greenline composition, the sawdust must be completely coated by the plastic binder in order to form a good solid material. Thus the binder would remain the controlling material since the wood particles are isolated from each other and the environment by the plastic coating. Thus the characteristics of the material would be far more similar to other plastics than to any wood.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Ken Shaw
Date: 1999-11-16 23:29
My experience has been that the care with which the instrument is made is much more important than the material.
I played a grenadilla R-13 and a Greenline R-13 at the Buffet booth in Columbus and could not hear or feel any difference. I certainly could not hear any difference when others switched between them, and, apart from the slightly smoother surface and slightly greater weight of the Greenline, there was no difference in their "feel."
Several years ago at Charlie Ponte's store, I played a silver Haynes and a silver Bettony side by side. They were completely different. The Haynes responded and sounded like a Selmer, on which it was modeled. The Bettony responded and sounded like its model, the pre-R-13 Buffet. I was always aware that I was playing a metal clarinet, and neither instrument had keys exactly the same as its model, but the playing qualities were very good and characteristic of the models.
Kalmen Opperman has made barrels out of space-age ceramics that play identically to his wood barrels. On at least one of Richard Stoltzman's CDs, there is a picture of him playing on a white barrel, which is the ceramic.
IMO, the only difference between wood and metal (or plastic) is the relative roughness of the bore surface and the rounding off of the edges of the tone holes that occurs naturally in wood and is easier for a finisher of instruments to produce in wood. The proof is that the best contra-alto in the world is a plastic Noblet (I think) on which Kalmen Opperman did the bore and tone hole work.
Alvin Swiney, who apprenticed with Hans Moenig, posted a number of messages on the Klarinet list on this subject a couple of years ago. He said that Moenig said the best barrels were made from less dense grenadilla, with an open grain that made the bore surface look dull with distinct indentations between the layers of the grain. I have also heard this from other barrel makers.
Now, if I could convince Luis Rossi to make an instrument of slightly wrinkled silver ....
Ken Shaw
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Margaret Copeland
Date: 1999-11-17 13:19
I'd like to everyone for their feedback on the Greenline. I did a search on the old messages and read what was there. I don't think anyone responded here who was actually a Greenline owner. I'm thinking that the keywork must be identical to the B&C wooden clarinets.
I've recently had extensive work done on the upper bore of my 32 year wooden oboe. That work (interesting process) has brought back the intonation and response. The leaks and water problems are gone but I'm wearing out the mechanism on this instrument and am hoping to buy a new one. During the time my oboe was out of commission I borrowed a plastic Selmer (maybe a $800 student oboe). It was a relief to play - it was in tune ! - it was *easy* to play. The tone was different but not awful and could be helped by a good reed made for it. This got me to thinking about the virtues of the plastic/wood combination.
The next oboe I buy will have to last me a long time. As for the Swiney/Moennig comment, if the FAQs on wood species of Grenadilla are to be believed, we may not be dealing today with anything like the same quality or type of wood. I have a 70 year old English Horn. The bore looks like a mirror inside, the quality of the wood is different, it is very heavy. I'll bet it is not the same wood as the Mpingo that today's oboes and Ehorns are made of. It may react more slowly to the constant wetting, drying and swabbing that today's clarinets and oboes are subject to. In addition to the natural shrinkage and changes in the shape of the bore, we are literally "sanding off" minute parts of our instrument's bore. Perhaps this is the reason that many pro oboists get new instruments every few years are so because the "magic" in gone.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Mark Charette
Date: 1999-11-17 13:59
Margaret,
Some people believe in the "blow-out" phenomena and swabbing is one of the purported causes.
Then again, some people have "wood" wind instruments well over 100 years old that are playing well. If swabbing destroys instruments, why are these doing so well?
Check the Klarinet archives for some interesting articles.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Margaret Copeland
Date: 1999-11-17 15:37
In my post I mentioned the archive information here on the various wood species that are labeled "Grenadilla". I'll bet my 70 year old English Horn isn't Mpingo wood but another species. It is quite different than my oboe. From polling various new oboe owners, I'm finding a big percentage are having the top joint crack. This is a different and not drastic problem from the entire oboe losing its edge. It might be that the old instrument makers kept their wood around longer - seasoned it. It may be they had the "old growth". Mpingo is a very hard wood and it is hard to imagine it deteriorating. However the inside of the bore of my wooden oboe looked awful. It was leaking badly and the pads had been tested for leaks. I was getting tiny cracks around the tone holes and the bore looks chapped and nasty. After it was sealed and coated with nitrocellulose, the tuning came back. Supposedly Leon Goossens played the same Lorée all of his life but if he bought it close to the turn of the century, he might have gotten a superior piece of wood. There are people in my band playing on ancient Buffet Clarinets and they are in tune. Keep in mind that a clarinet has a much larger bore and not as tapered a bore so clarinets might be more tolerant.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Mark Charette
Date: 1999-11-17 16:32
Margaret,
even if the wood was 2X more resistant to wear than todays wood, it should be unusable in 20 years instead of 10 if the friction of swabbing is the culprit (if we are to believe in the phenomena of blowout). It doesn't seem to be the case.
The "survival of the fittest" does come into play when evaluating older instruments. How many of the older instruments have been discarded because they weren't very good? The surviving instruments from older ages are normally prime examples, thus the recurring "they don't make them like they used to" comments.
There are possible causes for what some people believe to be blowout, one being the decline of hearing as we age ("the instrument doesn't sound the same anymore ...").
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Margaret Copeland
Date: 1999-11-17 18:51
The whole "blow out" problem has been debated in depth - I'm thinking of Lars journel etc. and lots of email discussion. I'd love to know why people think instruments "blow out" but they claim they do and it can happen to younger people with good ears. In my intrument's case, it is on loan to me, it was stored for years in a very dry location and not played. It had not been played much before then and so the key work was in excellant condition. It could be that it was a nasty instrument to begin with but when I began studying with my teacher six years ago, it was much more in tune. It got so wild in the last month, that I could not play it. I just couldn't stretch the notes or fool enough with reeds to play in tune. So bad in fact that I had alternate fingerings on many of the high notes and special musical prayers for the rest. Playing the plastic Selmer was a relief !
I hate the idea of putting the instrument in the trash and have done more than most to keep it going. However I've reached a point in which I have no more patience. I'm spending more effort keeping it adjustment than I am having a fun time playing.
Yes I'd say there is a "survival of the fittest" concept in old instruments but truly there is a lot of old crap out there. There are a just a lot of instruments.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Kathy Beatty
Date: 1999-11-17 20:08
Margaret,
I see by your message this morning that I was unclear in my first posting. I do own a Greenline, have had it for about 2 years now. In my opinion (FWIW), the Greenline material is really superior to natural wood.
Kathy
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: paul
Date: 1999-11-17 20:18
I like the look, feel, playability, intonation, etc. of my all wood Festival. It's a gorgeous work of art in itself. Though, if at that time I had the choice, I probably would have opted for the Greenline instead of the wood. The filler/binder billets that they make the Greenline series out of are very tough if Buffet's wood working equipment can't handle them.
With the Greenline, you get the workmanship of a genuine pro grade horn, the indestructability of a student grade horn, and something more - a potentially indefinite lifetime of hard use out of the horn. Not a bad deal at all.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Kathy Beatty
Date: 1999-11-18 15:35
One thing I didn't mention in all this. The Greenline currently comes only with nickel-plated keys, and the plating is wearing off very quickly. I own a 40+ year old nickel plated instrument, so I don't think it's just my body chemistry that is the problem (as some have stated). Several other people on Klarinet have noted this problem, too.
Kathy
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Mark Charette
Date: 1999-11-18 16:41
Kathy Beatty wrote:
-------------------------------
One thing I didn't mention in all this. The Greenline currently comes only with nickel-plated keys, and the plating is wearing off very quickly.
--------
Kathy,
are you sure it's not an option on the R13? The Greenline Festivals and RC Prestiges come with silverplating standard. It's most probably that you'd have to special-order an R13 Greenline with silver plating, just like you do with a traditional R13.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Kathy Beatty
Date: 1999-11-18 18:35
If silver plating is an option and you're buying a Greenline, I'd highly recommend you shell out the extra $200 or so for it.
Kathy
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Leigh-Anne
Date: 1999-11-24 19:42
I'm so glad to see the message board topic.
I'm starting the search for a new clarinet, i now have a plastic selmer student model.
My friend has a buffet Greenline, and i had no idea what it was. I'd ask people and they had no idea. I want to buy a good instrument, but i really can't spend alot of money.
I have a few questions.
Does Buffet make different models (R13, E11, etc), or is there just one buffet greenline?
Is this type of instrument cheaper than buying a regular wood one? Approx. how much to they cost?
is it hard to find these instruments?
Thanks so much for all your help, i'd also appreciate anyones opinions on good intermediete to proffesional clarinets. (I can't spend more than about 1500)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Mark Charette
Date: 1999-11-24 23:01
The grrenline is available for R13, RC, and festival models. The price is similar to the price for the wood ones, sometimes even slightly higher.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Mark Charette
Date: 1999-11-24 23:17
The greenline is available for R13, RC, and festival models. The price is similar to the price for the wood ones, sometimes even slightly higher.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: BAC
Date: 2000-03-15 18:07
This is an old topic - but I did not notice that any mentioned the ratio of material. Buffet states that the greenline is composed of 95% wood (yes sawdust I would think, but still 95%) - It is hard to call something plastic that is made of 95% wood.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2000-03-15 18:19
The sawdust is filler material. The old material Bakelite was mostly mica - but we didn't call it a "rock".
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
