 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Mel
Date: 2003-11-18 20:22
In the winter, when it is colder and dryer, I find that I have to oil my clarinet more often. I had an instructor several years ago say that he only used sweet almond oil for his clarinet, but that many people also used grape seed oil. I have been using almond oil since then, and it is much better than the commercial bore oil that I had been using before. I was wondering if anyone has a particular type of oil they like and opinions about oiling in general.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2003-11-18 21:09
Mel - I assume from your URL that it is U of ND. Growing up in Mich, I admire the tenacity of N D' ns. Two of our best repairers [on our BB] have said that only apricot oil may be better than almond oil In [their] HO's. I have and use both, can't see any real diff yet. Our "expert" on these, and other oils and frequency of use, is "The Doctor", L Omar Henderson, so let's hope he reads this and responds. Luck, keep warm, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-11-18 21:38
Go to http://www.doctorsprod.com/DrsProduct.html and trust!
If you want detailed information, search in this forum for the screeds of information and advice that Omar has already so willingly provided. It seems pointless to get him to keep repeating himself, although he has done this many times already. What a patient man!
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Author: hans
Date: 2003-11-19 14:31
BobD,
I suspect that you are right, and I believe that "rapeseed" is called "Canola" now. I wouldn't oil my clarinet with it.
Regards,
Hans
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Author: BobD
Date: 2003-11-19 14:41
I probably wouldn't either. However, opinions about oil vary widely and have done so for over a hundred years. A safe bet is to use Doc's oil....in my opinion.
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2003-11-19 15:12
(Disclaimer - I sell an oil formulation for woodwind instruments) A number of different oils have been suggested for use on Grenadilla wood. I would not use Canola oil, apricot oil, or almond oil alone. These oils contain easily oxidized bonds that can lead to what we call rancidity. Often Vitamin E is added as an anti-oxidant but it is not effective in the long term (it is a decent anti-oxidant in an animal fat system but poor in a plant oil system). Often these oils are stored in the refrigerator to keep fresh but this is not the warm moist condition that they will find themselves in the bore of a clarinet. These oils are also not used in the initial impregnation of the wood at the factory where a mixture of different plant derived oils is used. The oil used at the factory has proven stability (it usually sits around in vats at room temperature for long periods of time) and has a historical track record for use in the wood of woodwind instruments.
Just as a historical reminder from my posts over the last several years (so that the newer BB members do not have to read reams of posts) -
I have verified the formulations of oils used by the large instrument manufacturers - no, I will not divulge what oil formulations they use. They are a mixture of plant derived oils (not petroleum based). These oil formulations contain emulsifiers and antioxidants (either added or naturally occurring). These oils maintain a molecular layer of water associated with the oil which helps maintain a stable moisture content in the wood (there are lengthy discussions of this particular attribute of plant oils in older posts). I make and sell a formulation of plant derived oils, which contains only plant system emulsifiers and anti-oxidants - no, I will not divulge this proprietary formulation. Wood instruments loose the oil used to impregnate the wood at the time of manufacture because these plant derived oils can be lost with moisture removed from the bore of the instrument. Each piece of wood is individual in its ability to retain oil and gain or loose moisture, and environmental conditions may accelerate or retard this gain or loss.
IMHO the wood in woodwind instruments will benefit from keeping a proper balance of oil and moisture in the wood. To dispel an urban legend - Grenadilla wood will absorb and retain certain types of plant derived oils and maintain a more stable moisture content - even after initial impregnation.
The Doctor
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2003-11-19 19:36
Nothing wrong with Almond oil, and it is cheap.
Sounds like your problem is humidification; something that should be addressed with other means. I doubt the wood is so thirsty as to need weekly oiling, and you're likely to leave oil in the toneholes - hello repad!
I use a 35mm film cannister holding a damp sponge - punch holes in the lid.
It pays to check frequently if you carry the clarinet in a car during Winter.
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2003-11-19 20:33
Use what you will on your own horn. Almond oil is notorious for its oxidation potential. If the oil is not a very pale yellow color it is oxidized. As with many of our modern processed foods the oils that we buy are not "exactly" the original plant product (certain of the fatty acids are modified) and are generally extracted with a steam distillation process which removes some of the microcomponents and most of the natural antioxidants. USP Almond oil available at the pharmacy is steam processed. Even "Expeller" pressed oils available at health food stores use a heating process in the pressing. Oils that are "cold" pressed retain these ingredients. These latter cold pressed oils offer (from my observations) superior wood preservation properties, penetration characteristics, and water holding properties. Cold pressed oils are only available from a few sources world-wide and are much more expensive than the heat extracted oil. Is there a difference ?? - I believe so - only the properties and not the ultimate preservation longevity of the wood is proven however. Will cold pressed oil help you in Ab major - no!
The Doctor
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Author: Mark Pinner
Date: 2003-11-19 23:37
I have been using almond or linseed oil for years and have never had a problem with rancidity. The trick is to turn over the oil, don't buy huge quantities, and store in a dark place. I use either for different situations have never had a complaint. I am in Sydney which has notoriously high humidity levels, especially in summer and these oils have proved suitable over the years. Likewise most local repairers use eucalyptus oil for cleaning pads and removing waterproofing with no ill effect. The use of these oils has been passed on from the repairers that taught those of my age and have been in use here for many decades. Commercial bore oils are not favoured by those who do a lot of oiling, they tend to penetrate all the way through leaving little in the bore itself. There are bound to be a plethora of opinions on this subject so I have included my own experiences and what was taught to me when I studied repairing. I am sure the current bottle of almond oil I am using is cold pressed, maybe there are different standards country to country. The linseed oil, which is preferable for restoration, is not food grade but sold in hardware stores for oiling cricket bats and furniture finishing. Almond oil is also effective with boxwood, maple etc.. The eucalyptus oil is medicinal grade and leaves no noticeable residue.
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2003-11-20 00:58
Thank you for sharing your experience Mark. My point I guess is that if it is labeled as a duck and it quacks like a duck it may not be a duck in the U.S.. There are indeed different processes and standards for production and naming products between countries. For many "natural" products there are no hard and fast standards for composition and we (as scientists) may not have figured out all of the characteristics and micro components that give "natural" compounds their mode of action in a particular application. I have studied plant oils for many years and have compared various samples extracted and/or processed in different ways. Through this research I have been able to determine that certain oils behave differently, or have different effects depending on their origin and processing, also on storage conditions. One of my big mistakes in the past has been to use modern "ducks" in ancient and proven formulations that were not the original species of "duck" used in the workable product.
Your experience withstanding, I feel that oil with a compatible composition to that used in the manufacture of the instrument should be used to replentish the wood - if it needs it. I am only speaking of clarinets and not other instruments that may (in my lack of knowledge) be manufactured using other oil products.
The Doctor
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-11-20 10:11
My snippet of experience:
Years ago I used to make wooden puzzles and geometric models.
I coated some with almond oil, which I bought as top grade from a chemist (drugstore?). I also used the almond oil in my first wooden clarinet.
I coated other of the wooden items with fresh, raw linseed oil.
These items all felt and smelt very sweet.
A few years later, they all had developed a sticky surface, reminding me of half-set varnish, and smelling rancid. I could find nothing to remove the stickiness. I sold the clarinet. 20 years later, the smell in the other items has gone, but some stickiness remains. When they were made they were pleasant items to handle. Not now.
I have since serviced quite a few clarinets with a similar rancid smell and sticky feel.
This is why I follow the seemingly extremely well-researched advice and product from the "Doctor".
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Author: BobD
Date: 2003-11-20 13:57
Just wondering....aside from a smell that might not be pleasant....will rancid oil( almond for one example) have any detrimental effect on a clarinet?
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Author: William
Date: 2003-11-20 14:25
I have never oiled any of the bores of my many pro level Selmer, Buffets and Yamahas, and none of them have cracked or displayed any other sign of deterioration over the years. And I also live in the upper midwest where winter conditions can be extreme. To oil or not--your option. But for me, the jury is still "out".
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2003-11-20 18:16
The jury may be out on oiling or not oiling your wood but the weight of scientific evidence on the use of researched and tested formulations of plant derived oils is weighing heavily in favor of maintaining an oil and moisture balance in wood instruments for longevity and resonance qualities. Each piece of wood is different in its ability to hold and maintain an oil and moisture balance and should be accessed. Proof in this multi-factorial problem is difficult to get "beyond a shadow of doubt".
The oxidation of plant oils is a multi-step process and the oxidized end products that produce the "rancid" smell are way down the line in the chain. These oxidized oils loose their ability to maintain the preservation qualities for wood structure, maintain a moisture balance, and they themselves may be harmful to wood structure because of the general acidic nature of these oxidation products. The oxidized oils are also more attractive to mold and bacteria as a food source.
The Doctor
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Author: BobD
Date: 2003-11-20 21:49
Thanks Doc. I bought a bottle of almond oil from a drugstore, put some vitamin E in it and it turned rancid withing 5 months. So much for that experiment.
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2003-11-21 00:07
(Disclaimer - I sell a woodwind oil product - sorry if this sounds too self serving but it is documented data) I follow the drug industry guidelines for testing and keeping quality control lots of my products and retesting them on a chronological schedule for quality parameters. Unfortunately the only spare space for these samples is my garage which is not temperature controlled and gets into triple digits in the summer heat and sometimes below 10 degrees F here in Georgia. My original lots of my plant derived oil formulation now date back more than 9 years and recent tests indicate no loss in chemical, physical or functional properties. It is therefore possible to make oil formulations of plant derived oils, plant derived emulsifiers, and plant derived antioxidant cocktails that will preserve these mixtures for years. Vitamin E, although derived from plants, is only effective in animal fat systems and plants use other more potent antioxidants in their own plant oil systems. Plants have evolved these potent antioxidant chemicals, that are not well studied, to combat the powerful oxygen radicals produced in the photosynthesis process and protect the plants natural oils from oxidation. With regard to previous posts - the methods of producing plant oils commonly sold often removes any traces of these natural antioxidant compounds.
The Doctor
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Author: studioline
Date: 2003-11-21 22:35
This all sounds really scientific and a bit complicated! I've just bought some new clarinets (rossi's) and would like some advice, simple advice.....
1. Should I be oiling them, and if so how do I do it- what do I do, and how many times considering they are new clarinets.
2. How do I tell in the future if they need oiling?
3. What oil should I use and where do I get it from? (I'm in the UK)
I've had my buffet R13 prestige's for about 13 years and have never oiled them myself. They have been oiled when taken for an overhaul but that isn't very often. However, I obviously want to keep my new rossi's well maintained, and do what's best for them, especially in their new fragile state, desperatley wanting to avoid any cracks and and the like. help!
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Author: hans
Date: 2003-11-22 15:20
studioline,
You should be able to buy special bore oil from any woodwind retailer.
When the bore starts to lose its shine, do this before playing, i.e., when your clarinet is dry:
First, place small pieces of aluminum foil or plastic under the normally closed pads to keep oil from getting on them.
Then place a small amount of bore (not key oil) oil on a wool swab, then wrap an absorbent rag around it and squeeze lightly to remove surplus oil. Then run the oiled swab through the instrument.
After several hours, swab the clarinet again with a clean swab to remove any excess oil.
Then remove your pad protectors.
To avoid cracks, the conventional wisdom is that these are caused by sudden and/or extreme changes in temperature, so avoiding these is important. If temperature extremes are unavoidable, leave the instrument in its case until it reaches room temperature before playing it.
Oiling prevents water from penetrating the wood and the theory is that this has a stabilizing effect. Oiling will also protect the bore from the carbonic acid present in saliva, possibly preventing erosion.
There are many exceptions, since each piece of wood is unique. Some oiled clarinets may crack while others are never oiled and don't crack; i.e., there may be some luck involved.
FYI, I oil my clarinet several times per year: 15 years, no cracks so far.
Regards,
Hans
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-11-23 08:48
Just a couple of comments relating to the above:
1. I think if you need to 'insulate' the pads form the tone holes when oiling, then you are almost certainly applying too much oil. If oil gets down the tone holes then it really needs to be cleaned OUT of the tone holes, so it does not migrate to pads.
2. This forum has in the past, thoroughly covered the issue and benefits of applying the right product to STABILISE (by 'buffering') the moisture content in the timber, rather than trying to exclude moisture from the timber. In this respect I suggest you just trust the bore treatment from "the Doctor". The research that has gone behind its development is enormous.
3. I most certainly would not trust just any product from the local woodwind retailer, even those products with big instrument brand names on them. The force behind the marketing of almost all of these seems to be maximum profit, rather than responsible supply of quality product.
Just order the product that is the result of extensive and dedicated research on the topic - from the "Doctor" - on line:
http://www.doctorsprod.com/DrsProduct.html
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Author: hans
Date: 2003-11-23 14:33
Gordon,
IMO for anyone oiling for the first time, like studioline, "insulating" the pads is a reasonable precaution.
Re your comment that "The force behind the marketing of almost all of these seems to be maximum profit, rather than responsible supply of quality product", I think that's a bit of a stretch and unfair generalization. Selmer's bore oil, which I use, is very inexpensive so that IMO it is offered more to meet a customer need than to make a huge profit. It has served me well without turning rancid, leaving sticky deposits, etc. so that IMO its quality is not in doubt.
Regards,
Hans
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-11-23 19:53
Perhaps a reasonable precaution, but if there is any evidence of oil that would have reached the pads without the 'insuation', then those associated keys should be removed, and the saturated tone holes thoroughly cleaned, otherwise as soon as the 'insulation' is removed, the pad is exposed to the oil. Oil is unfriendly to pads.
BTW it is a good idea to start the oiling form the large end of the bore, so there is less chance of over-deposition in the tone holes.
Post Edited (2003-11-24 09:30)
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2003-11-23 21:53
Caveat Emptor - read the label on the oil. Sometimes they will tell you that it is mineral oil, or even mineral oil with petroleum distillates (even worse) - sometimes they will not list ingredients. If the oil is crystal clear it is almost certain to be mineral oil. Mineral oil is not good for Grenadilla wood in the long run. It will break down the cell walls and structure of the wood. The instrument manufacturers do not use mineral oil to impregnate the wood prior to manufacture and why they sell it in the aftermarket is beyond my comprehension except that it costs about US $1.38 per pound in tanker truck quantities - a handsome profit engine.
The Doctor
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2003-11-24 09:19
There used to be a small bottle of Selmer "Bore Oil" on my desk as a horrible example. You bet it won't turn rancid. It CAN'T turn rancid. Neither can the crankcase oil in your car. They are both made from petroleum. This "bore oil" did not grow on a tree, as your Clarinet did. The label says it: "contains mineral oil." No way should that stuff be put on a wooden Clarinet. That's my opinion, along with opinions of some other people who understand woods and their care and preservation much better than I do.
A hundred years ago, one of the top five causes of death in the US was diarrhea. As we know more now, that is no longer the case. Fifty years ago, I used olive oil on my Clarinet. I now know that there is a well-educated chemist who has done years of research on the topic and produces what is evidently a superior oil for wood Clarinets. The cost? Compared to what my Clarinets are worth, it's almost nothing. So now I use that stuff. I say these things only because they're true. Dr. Omar Henderson gives me not one red cent. Sometimes, I suspect he wishes I'd break my keyboard.
I will not claim that using Bore Doctor will keep you from dying of diarrhea. However, based on all the testing that's been done, it isn't going to damage your Clarinet or make it stink anytime soon either. If you don't want that certainty, save money by using the lipid of your choice. Hope for the best, recite your own personal magic words, and maybe burning a chicken in the dark of the moon will help, too.
Regards,
John
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