 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: clarinet87
Date: 2003-11-09 23:15
I know that this is a strange question to ask on the BBoard, but how come they don't use alto saxophones in symphony orchestras? The saxophone has a beautiful sound, just like the other woodwind instruments, right? So how come you don't see saxophones in orchestras? The woodwind section could get a different sound if orchestras had saxophones. Composers could give the saxophone solos just like the other wind intruments. Is it just tradition not to use saxophones in orchestras?
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Author: diz
Date: 2003-11-09 23:43
They do:
Bizet - The Girl from Arle (sorry my French is shocking, merde!)
Mussorgsky (Ravel) - Pictures at an Exhibition
Strauss - Domestic Symphony (a quartet of them)
Vaughn Williams - Symphony No. 6 in E minor (tenor).
just to name a scant few.
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Author: allencole
Date: 2003-11-10 01:07
Saxophone is a recent addition to the woodwind family, and I'm sure that there will be more. Porgy and Bess has the 2nd, 3rd and bass clarinets doubling two altos and one tenor sax respectively. Multiple saxes also appear to be present both in Rhapsody in Blue and An American in Paris.
Solo alto saxes are also being heard quite a bit in recent movie scores. John Williams has just developed a concerto for sax based on his score to Catch Me If You Can.
Let's not forget, too, that Adolphe Saxe also had trouble finding acceptance for his bass clarinet at first.
I'm curious to know what our members think should be the standard compliment of saxophones for a symphony orchestra.
Allen Cole
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Author: GBK
Date: 2003-11-10 01:51
Let's not forget Ravel's use of saxophones in Bolero (1928).
Just to annoy everyone:
Dum diddly dum diddly dum dum
Dum diddly dum diddly diddly diddly ...GBK
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Author: GBK
Date: 2003-11-10 02:02
Bernstein also favors using the alto saxophone in a number of his symphonic works.
This month we happen to be performing the Three Dance Episodes from "On The Town". Nice alto saxophone solo in the 3rd dance ...GBK
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2003-11-10 02:15
As mentioned, Bizet L'Arlesienne Suites 1 and 2, quite a bit of alto sax, have played that beautiful solo; The Old Castle, in Pictures, "haunting"; French "impressionists" Poulenc, Ravel, Debussey??, Faure etc, Gershwin, possibly Copland?; a piece titled Lions, mid 50's US composer [cant recall name now!] contemporary compositions. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2003-11-10 03:23
Question: Is Bernstein's "Candide" scored for any saxophones? I truly don't recall (but I'm sure GBK does).
Regards,
John
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Author: Wayne Thompson
Date: 2003-11-10 05:24
Good question, Clarinet87!!
If you haven't heard some of the things mentioned here, you are in for a big treat. Get recordings and enjoy!
A simple answer to your question, though, is that so much of the quote, classical, unquote music we know, like Beethoven and Mozart was written before saxophones were invented. I believe the story is that Berlioz heard the saxophone in Sax's factory and wrote a part for Bass Sax in something or another. And as described above, the sax has been used, somewhat, ever since.
Wayne
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Author: GBK
Date: 2003-11-10 06:35
JMcAulay asked:
> Question: Is Bernstein's "Candide" scored for any saxophones?
I'm fairly certain there is a soprano sax part ...GBK
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Author: LeWhite
Date: 2003-11-10 07:45
Orchestras don't have sax because they have Bass Clarinet...
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Author: Aussie Nick
Date: 2003-11-10 08:25
"The saxophone has a beautiful sound, just like the other woodwind instruments, right?"
Not in my opinion. I think it's a vile instrument that shouldn't be included in the woodwind family. But thats just my extreme, probably uncalled for opinion
By the way, Rachmaninoff also uses alto sax in his Symphony Dances.
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Author: jez
Date: 2003-11-10 09:47
I've long cherished the dream of replacing the usual 2 oboes in the orchestra with 2 soprano saxes. A much sweeter sound. Of course you could use alto instead of cor anglais.
(hope I haven't offended any oboists) ![[tongue]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie6.gif)
jez
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2003-11-10 11:39
Jez, I hope you have now taken your tongue out of your cheek.
Soprano saxes indeed!
Next thing, you'll be wanting to replace the bassoons with sarrusophones, the horns with mellophones, trombones with euphs, harps with banjos, timps with a drumkit and how about some electric fiddles and bass guitars?
---
To answer the original question, surely the reason saxes aren't in the standard orchestra is because they don't blend well with the other woodwind. When they are used, it is precisely because their timbre stands out and surprises the listener.
The undoubted and indisputable fact that the sax is a vile instrument is nothing to do with it. So is the flute, and all orchestras use those.
-----------
If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
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Author: javier garcia m
Date: 2003-11-10 13:35
Katchaturian, Sabre's Dance
Ravel's Spanish Rapsodia partition ask for Sarrusophone instead os contrabassoon.
And the partition for Mendelsohn's Summer Night Dream ask for Ophicleide.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2003-11-10 13:54
Symphony orchs are dominated by strings for a number of reasons....but mainly tradition. Saxes, like trumpets, can overpower strings and the lesser woodwinds. I do think that a number of major orchs, however, are trying to get Kenny G. to sign up!
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2003-11-10 14:46
Gershwin: Rhapsody in Blue (alto, tenor, baritone)
Prokofiev: Romeo & Juliet ballet music (tenor)
Alban Berg: Violin Concerto, Lulu (alto)
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Author: FrankM
Date: 2003-11-10 14:58
I had the pleasure of getting the call to play Lt. Kije with a local orchestra when I was in college. As if orchestral sax wasn't unusual enough, Lt. Kije calls for a tenor sax! Anyway, I sat down between the bassoons and a cello player at the first rehearsal.....the cello player leaned over to me, looked me up and down and said..."so that's a saxophone, eh?".....evidently,at least in this orchestra, sax was something unusual!!! It's great fun to play though....lots of exposed solos / duets with various instruments.....Wish I could do it again someday.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2003-11-10 15:20
I finally found/remembered Alan Hohvaness' " Lions" [in a nite club, solo ended with a high F "scream!!], fun. Our symp later played his Mont St. Helens suite, dont recall saxes, but they may have contributed to the eruption!! Different music! Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: ken
Date: 2003-11-10 17:28
JMcAulay asked GBK:
> Question: Is Bernstein's "Candide" scored for any saxophones?
I'm fairly certain there is a soprano sax part ...GBK
--YES, there are also soprano/alto parts on:
1) Mr. Bernstein's "Slava" Overture and
2) Darius Milhaud's "Creation of the World". v/r Ken
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Author: clarinetwife
Date: 2003-11-10 17:30
GBK -- Have you started a new game here? I can name that tune in one "dum diddly dum" or less.
Actually, I was going to propose a strict "NO dum diddly dum" rule for this board after reading your "annoying" post, but I feel better now that I have calmed down a bit.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2003-11-10 18:22
clarinetwife ... It could have been worse.
I was thinking of posting the words to Disney's "It's a Small World After All" ...GBK
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Author: clarinetwife
Date: 2003-11-10 19:15
Now you've done it, GBK! I have small children, so I hear way too much of that kind of thing. I understand why the military was using Barney songs as an interrogation tool.
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Author: msloss
Date: 2003-11-11 13:45
For the same reason Arcangelo Corelli didn't write any clarinet concertos -- for many composers in the symphonic canon, it (the sax) didn't exist. Adolphe Sax didn't patent that "ill wind" until the 1840's, and struggled mightily to gain any kind of credibility or acceptance for it for decades. You can see above that plenty of composers since then found a use for it as something other than a urinal or strawberry planter.
"I'm curious to know what our members think should be the standard compliment of saxophones for a symphony orchestra."
Allen, I think the standard compliment would be "you played those rests very well".
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Author: BobD
Date: 2003-11-11 13:58
Haha on the rests....very good! Standard compl(ie)ment for sym.orch: Kenny G without a reed.
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Author: diz
Date: 2003-11-11 20:54
David Peacham said:
To answer the original question, surely the reason saxes aren't in the standard orchestra is because they don't blend well with the other woodwind. When they are used, it is precisely because their timbre stands out and surprises the listener.
How odd, sorry David, I tend to disagree with you. At present you can't really get four more diverse sounding families of instruments along side each other (flute, oboe, clarinet, bassoon). At least the other familieis (except percussion) all play the same way (bow or lipped mouthpiece).
I reckon the saxophone fits in just fine, I also reckon it's just custom ... people hate change.
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Author: bob49t
Date: 2003-11-12 16:31
One of the nicest writing for alto sax is in the great (but underheard )alto sax trio (played by doublers) of a Shostakovich suite in Introduction to Dance" from "The Gadfly" from which the better known "Romanze" also comes.
Shostakovich again - Jazz Suite no 2 - lovely smooth solo in a waltz and a fabulous but horrendously speedy difficult solo quartet in 6 sharps of 2 altos and 2 tenors.
Nothing nicer than a smooth classical sound of an alto sax (or several) blending in with a Symphony Orchestra in a piece written specifically for it.
RT
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Author: Gary Van Cott
Date: 2003-11-12 22:49
In fact, there are two volumes of orchestral excerpts for saxophone by Bruce Ronkin and Robert Frascotti with a total to 67 excertps.
Gary
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Author: pzaur
Date: 2003-11-12 23:06
Hey now, don't forget about "Symphonic Dances from West Side Story" and "Suite from A Quiet Place."
Two great recordings done by Michael Tilson Thomas and the London Symphony.
And for the whole issue of the saxophone having a vile or horrendous sound, I couldn't disagree more. The saxophone can blend just as well as any other instrument in the orchestra. Listeners just aren't used to hearing and composers, it seems, are having a difficult time finding a niche for the saxophone in the orchestral setting.
I can hear them now "Oh great, another family of instruments to score for!"
After all, how many times can you double a line of music?
pat
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Author: BobD
Date: 2003-11-13 21:50
I really love the saxophone but sax players tend to be like brass players and play triple f all the time. This may be great for some venues,however.
Isn't there a sax solo in one of the Pictures At An Ex?
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Author: Tom A
Date: 2003-11-14 01:02
Has somebody already mentioned this one? I think there's a big solo in the first of Rachmaninov's Symphonic Dances, op. 45.
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Author: marcia
Date: 2003-11-14 05:49
Yes there is an alto sax solo in Pictures at an Exhibition. All you who have vilified the sax have perhaps not ever heard it well played. It can be as smooth and velvety as any other instrument. Unfortunately it is often badly played and if that is all people have heard I can understand their dislike. I have had the pleasure of hearing some outstanding sax players, and have even had the pleasure of occasionaly playing my alto sax in my community orchestra. That really truned people's heads! I think some were not sure what it was, never mind having ever heard one being played!!
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Author: Luke
Date: 2003-11-14 20:37
You know there isn't much in the world of classical saxophone when we're down to naming individual pieces in which a sax can be heard.
Most of us don't play very loudly at all (although we can), it's just that the saxophonists you hear most often are the jazz cats who show up to practices with their metal Dukoffs and Meyers and Larsens and cut right through all the other instruments. Simply put, they don't blend, but a skilled sax player can do so wonderfully. I've heard classical-sax recordings in which I could swear the solos were done by Clarinets or French-horns and turned out to be an alto saxes. The saxophone is GREATLY underestimated.
It's true, more scores need to be written including sax, at least alto and maybe bari (the doom of the tuba-era: bari saxes in orchestras... faster, greater potential, more articulate). I don't know about tenor or soprano, those would probably end up being filler. The biggest advantage to having an alto sax in an orchestra is how it really can sound like a lot of classic orchestra instruments (french horns, some strings, clarinets, trumpets if you have someone with good articulation). I think as it becomes more usual in the orchestral field it will eventually become a standard instrument like all the others. In the meantime us sax players fiends have to deal with not even being considered for 90% of the orchestras out there simply because they don't take sax.
And consider this... the biggest real difference between a "Concert Band" and a "Concert Orchestra" is that there's a string section and double-reed section in one and a saxophone section in the other. Goes to show how much we can do, huh?
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2003-11-14 21:01
Along the lines of what Luke said, I have a recording of English sax player John Harle playing Glazounov's concerto with orchestra, and his sound is SO dark and covered (completely devoid of upper partials) that it took me three listenings of the CD to separate his sound from that of the French horns (personally I find his sound to be too colorless, the diametric opposite of the "metal Dukoff/Berg Larsen" approach). Although the repertoire is indeed limited, there is a legitimate and very well-developed classical saxophone genre.
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Author: ALOMARvelous12
Date: 2003-11-15 01:14
Our orchestra has played The Lieutenent Kije suite of Prokofiev, which has a part for tenor sax. The clarinet also has solos (which were played by me of course!).
The famous Ravel orchestral transcription of the Mussorgsky Pictures at an Exhibition features a well known part for sax. When I first heard a recording of this, i thought I was listening to a bassoon and clarinet playing in unison, but found out later it was a sax. I agree with those here who think the saxophone is an underrated instrument and is capable of much more than you think.
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Author: ned
Date: 2003-11-17 03:43
" Not in my opinion. I think it's a vile instrument that shouldn't be included in the woodwind family. But thats just my extreme, probably uncalled for opinion"
" The undoubted and indisputable fact that the sax is a vile instrument is nothing to do with it. So is the flute, and all orchestras use those."
How would you answer all the saxophonists who might say in reply, that there is no place for clarinet? Aside from saxes and flutes, are there any other "vile" instruments which you despise?
Quite curious and polarised opinions coming from fellow musicians.
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2003-11-17 10:02
"How would you answer all the saxophonists who might say in reply, that there is no place for clarinet? Aside from saxes and flutes, are there any other "vile" instruments which you despise?"
If a sax player told me "There is no place for the clarinet in the orchestra," I would simply conclude that he was living in fairyland. Might as well say there is no place for the violin. If he told me he didn't like the clarinet, then fine, that's his opinion.
But actually, I don't really think the flute is a vile instrument. They are lovely to look at. The problem with flutes is the sound that comes out of them when they are brought into proximity with most flute players. Maybe if flute players could agree to use vibrato as an occasional expressive device rather than a continuous distortion of the sound of the instrument, I might like the flute a wee bit more. I dislike a lot of cello playing for the same reason; the cello also seems to attract people who think emotion is only real if applied thick and glutinous. Not the instrument's fault, of course, and not a fault of every cellist; one of my all-time favourite recordings is of Rostropovitch.
-----------
If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
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Author: Bob A
Date: 2003-11-17 17:45
Clarinet87, let me get back to your original question. Here is a capsule answer from Larry Teal's book :The Arrt of Saxophone Playing".Into. pg9.
"Students often inquire why the saxophone is not included in the symphony orchestra. There are several reasons: (1) When the literature of the symphony was first developed, the instrument was not in existence. (2) Early attempts to include it often were unsatisfactory because of the imnmaturity of the saxophone tone and its inability to blend well with other instruments. (3) Composers avoid the instrument since they realize that the established symphony orchestra has no regular saxophonist and hesitate to add instruments that will require additional expense. (4) The standard of saxophone playing has not yet reached the point where the composer or conductor can always be assured of a competent performance on the symphonic level."
He then goes on to say:
"This last point is of the utmost importance and puts the responsibility for this neglect directly on the sholders of the saxophonists. While encouraging strides in the improvement of performance levels are evident, saxophone play as an art is still in its infancy."
Mark you, this book was written in 1963 not republished but is still THE definitive "learning" manual for many students. (Available through Amazon, Used Books, anywhere from $12-16USD.) A Selected Literature section waw revised and added in 1976 listing six pages of Methods, Etudes,Instrumentation (with degree of difficulty),Composers and a comprehensive Biblography.
Hope this answers what you asked.
Bob A
Post Edited (2003-11-17 17:52)
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Author: Luke
Date: 2003-12-01 18:01
Sure a lot of the data in that book is outdated, but if everything Teal said is true, then why aren't there saxophones getting accepted now, 40 years later?
(1) When the literature of the symphony was first developed, the instrument was not in existence.
Very true, but that's changing. More and more pieces include it.
(2) Early attempts to include it often were unsatisfactory because of the imnmaturity of the saxophone tone and its inability to blend well with other instruments.
Ahem... I think we all agree that it can blend quite wonderfully.
(3) Composers avoid the instrument since they realize that the established symphony orchestra has no regular saxophonist and hesitate to add instruments that will require additional expense
Lazy, penny pinching---(insert obscene name here)
(4) The standard of saxophone playing has not yet reached the point where the composer or conductor can always be assured of a competent performance on the symphonic level.
How terribly untrue in this modern era.
I think the saxophone will probably become more and more common through the years as a symphony instrument, as the bass clarinet has. Conductors and composers just have to figure out how they want to use a saxophone section.
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Author: paulwl
Date: 2003-12-02 13:27
All this talk about not blending. Isn't anyone here familiar with Sigurd Rascher or his teachings?
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Author: graham
Date: 2003-12-02 16:25
McCabe's 4th Symphony
Vaughan Williams' 9th Symphony
Woolrich Oboe Concerto
A problem with some sax use is that it plays one big solo and does nothing else. The Rach Symphonic Dances is very bad from that point of view. VW was one of the best at integrating it, but still not too thoroughly. Perhaps composers simply have not got the technical skill to write for it as a regular member rather than using it as a feature instrument. This would be worsened by composers seeing it as a woodwind family member. On the whole it would sit more easily with the brass section. Composers need to use lateral thinking and to take a few more risks.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2003-12-02 16:37
It would be good if (a) bass clarinet specialists were also good sax players, so that (b) composers might write parts to be played by the bass clarinetist doubling on sax --- that way both instruments could get a moderate amount of exposure (but not too much) while the orchestras would not have to carry an extra player for the few lines of sax (or conversely the few lines of bass clarinet). Many professional orchestra clarinetists/bass clarinetists are, in fact, very competent saxophonists also (from what I've been told). Everybody wins (except those classical saxophonists who play nothing but sax ---- which is not a good career choice, IMHO).
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Author: bob49t
Date: 2003-12-02 16:51
David,
Funny you should mention doubling bass cl/sax - have just done a concert which included Moussorgsky's "Pics at an Ex". At the sax solo - 2nd clar took bass part and it worked very well. More show scores I'm seeing have bass cl and sax doubling.
BobT
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2003-12-02 18:54
BobT,
Funny YOU should mention "Pictures..." ---- last time I played it with orch. I doubled bass clarinet and alto sax. Bass clarinet part was set aside temporarily during the alto sax solo.
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