 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2003-11-06 04:53
Well, Due to previous post, I know I'll need to repad my G# key and might want to eventually do the rest of the clarinet as well. However I will be practicing on my father's old Rene Duval clarinet (whose pads are original from when teh clarinet was bought back in the 50's or 60's).
I've checked out a few posts through searches and the equipment care and maintenance spot and have decided to repad with leather pads. I'll probably order them from Ferree's. But what exactly do I ask for? A few sets of leather pads?
Also, here's what I have at home. Keep in mind I'm a beginner, but I have dissasembled/reassembled the clarinet many times out of boredom. I have approptiately sized screwdrivers, my mother's glue gun and glue sticks, a lighter (unless there's another better, yet still cost effective way to heat the key to remove old pads). From the repad page on www.woodwind.org, I also figured I'd use an old cassette tape film to gauge how evenly seated it is.
Any advice aside from following that guide? Any tools that I'm missing? And what pads do I ask for (since I want leather)? Can I use leather for ALL the keys including small ones such as the throat keys, trill keys and register keys? Thanks.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-11-06 13:06
The size you choose for each cup depends on whether the pad is to go totally within the inside diameter of the cup, or overflow a little (or lot)towards the outside diameter.
Some tone holes are almost as large in diameter as the inside of the key cup, so overflow is desirable. Overflow is quite UNdesirable if the pad is so thick that it cannot lie level with the plane of the tone hole, or reduces the venting for that key.
Several variables! - especially when the actual sizing by the pad maker is not particularly reliable anyway.
In practice, a technician will typically try one size, and if he does not like it, choose the next size up or down, without necessarily any particular awareness of its numerical sizing.
There is little that is straight forward in instrument servicing!
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2003-11-06 14:14
Alexi,
Although Gordon (NZ) and some other formally-trained instrument technicians don't approve of my pad installation method, I'll pass it along anyway for your consideration since it is less risky for a novice (no heat is required). First, for pads, I'd recommend part # B32 pads from Ferree's Tools, or non-rivet pads from MusicMedic.com --- you can take the clarinet apart, remove all the old pads, measure the inside diameter of each key cup with a set of calipers, and make a list of the quantities of each size (I recommend using millimeters rather than US units for the sizes). Then call Ferree's and see if they can make you a set, they might not (generally they prefer to send minimum quantities of a dozen per size, but that might not be too bad if you intend to do a second or third clarinet thereafter). MusicMedic.com will sell individual pads, but they don't always have them in stock. Prestini in Nogales, Arizona is another source of pads I've used. To install them, you can use a dab of clear silicone glue (a.k.a. silicone sealant, silicone caulk, RTV) -- available at any hardware store and most variety stores and auto parts stores. Seat the pad (preferably using a leak light) then let the silicone glue air-dry (takes less than an hour). After you've finished the clarinet leave it out in the open (not stored inside its case) for at least a couple of days to let most of the acetic acid vapors from the glue evaporate.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-11-06 16:36
I am not formally trained; I am almost entirely self taught. However I am in regular contact with many repairers. I doubt that any of them would use this method.
As I intimated in my previous post, on some soprano clarinets, pads that sit inside key cups will not have sufficient diameter to reliably cover some tone holes.
There is a wide variety of silicone adhesives/sealants. Some are quite unsuitable with metal, and corrode it. Some have almost no adhesive properties.
If you purchase leather pads with a waterproofing treatment, they are effectively non-porous, and a silicone glue may take far, far longer than an hour to dry, trapping acetic acid fumes inside the key cup during this period.
If you use silicone and have problems seating the pads , and subsequently take the clarinet to a technician, the seating will not be adjustable by the standard method of heating the key cup to soften the hot-melt glue. The technician will very likely have to replace the pads. Also, once you have set silicone inside key cups it is very difficult to remove, and other adhesives probably will not reliably stick to the siliconed surface. (There are good reasons why hot melt adhesives are standard practice!)
Even if silver is not corroded by acetic acid vapours, it seems that copper is (http://pubs.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/cmq/32741-3.html), so presumably any exposed base metal containing copper could corrode.
I also wonder if acetic acid vapour could cause galvanic corrosion where the copper alloys contact steel pivots.
IMHO a leak light will be a particularly unreliable method of detecting leaks on a soprano clarinet, because of the narrow, long, dark tone holes. By the time the light gets to the top of the tone hole there will be very little left to travel sideways past a pad.
This method of gluing pads is most unorthodox!
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2003-11-06 17:08
Prestini is an excellent source of leather pads, and they will supply anything you need in any quantity. If you have a rather "standard" instrument, you can order pads in a set. If it's an uncommon stick, give them size information and they'll make whatever you want. Their prices are reasonable, too.
It's surprising no one has mentioned ironing the front surface of a leather pad prior to installation.
I don't heat pad cups to remove old pads... just gouge them out. It works no matter what has been used as an adhesive (except for maybe concrete).
Regards,
John
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Author: BobD
Date: 2003-11-06 17:55
Just a comment about "hot melt" since it has been used in more than a couple of posts recently. In common parlance "hot melt" refers to the round plastic rods that are held in and melted by heat in a "hot melt glue gun". This is the adhesive system used by woodworkers and around the house in miscellaneous jobs. I have been thinking that this is what clarinet techs have been referring to but now I'm thinking they simply mean the stick shellac and white french sticks that are melted with a flame. Maybe someone will clear this up.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2003-11-06 19:10
Gordon (NZ),
I don't want to re-open the silicone glue discussion, and as a mechanical engineer with a strong background in materials science I emphatically agree with nearly all of the objections you pose......but, having said that, let me say that, from 10+ years of experience with my method, empirically it works --- I think the potential problems you list are, for the most part, just that ---POTENTIAL problems which in actual experience don't occur or only have minimal detrimental effects. "Unorthodox" methods probably are wrong or at best sub-optimal most of the time, but not always --- occasionally they may be better than the standard, accepted method. In an earlier discussion of this I suggested you try, while keeping an open mind, using silicone glue for pad installation --- have you done this?
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-11-06 20:08
"....'Unorthodox' methods probably are wrong or at best sub-optimal most of the time, but not always --- occasionally they may be better than the standard..."
I quite agree. And that is why many of my methods are unorthodox.
I have not tried your method and do not intend to, because I am the one who will have to deal with the instrument in the future. To be able to assume that pads are installed using conventional glues when I do future work on the same instrument will save the customer money and me hassle.
I do not unnecessarily choose methods which are time intensive. Hot-melt glues set in several seconds.
I already 'curse' when my time is wasted dealing with pads stuck in with contact glue.
I am also not prepared to take ANY risk of causing corrosion of another person's instrument. I see far too many expensive problems caused by corrosion already.
Can you give a single reason why using silicone glue is PREFERABLE to hot-melt adhesives? I, in my open-mindedness, am really struggling to think of one.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2003-11-06 21:14
Gordon, I think I've explained before the feature of silicone glue which makes in preferable to hot-melt IN SOME INSTANCES, and you had in turn replied why IN YOUR APPLICATIONS it is generally less desirable ---- setting time. I like having at least ten minutes for a pad to seat while silicone glue starts to 'skin' --- lets me check the seating with a leak light, both 'stand-alone' and against other pads in the same 'stack' (if applicable) --- including sometimes hooking up the other body section and checking seal with the pads on the other side of the bridge key. I realize you're in more of a 'production' mode where you need fast sealing so you can move on to the next pad immediately, and for you I agree, hot-melt is a better way to go. As for your other concerns:
1) Silicone glue is not difficult to remove from pad cups, in my opinion --- much easier than contact cement, dental cement, even the old amber rosin.
2) I have repadded my instruments and those of other folks this way for nearly ten years now, and I have yet to see evidence of excessive key tarnishing, corrosion of metal screws, etc. on nickel-plated or solid nickel-silver keywork, even over a period of years. I grant you that I have done very few instruments with silver-plated keys so I have no database on whether silicone glue would tarnish those excessively. The key is my statement about leaving the instrument out in the open for a few days or more after repadding, to let the silicone glue get most of its offgassing out of the way --- again I realize that you don't have that luxury of time when you need to turn instruments over quickly in your shop. But for a beginner experimenting on his own instrument, or an experienced but 'part-time' tech like myself, my method does have some advantages and shouldn't be dismissed offhand.
By the way, you seem to discuss silicone glue interchangeably with contact cement -- they are NOT the same animals --- I detest contact cement, it's messy and is quite difficult to remove when dry.
Respectfully submitted,
Dave(US)
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Author: BobD
Date: 2003-11-06 21:50
Alexi....hold off on the hot glue gun for a minute.......
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Author: Mark P. Jasuta
Date: 2003-11-06 23:06
I think we should be a little open minded regarding repair methods. It seems that the repair methods used are as largely determined by the situation as the technician, either I have a few days to get it done or I needed it yesterday.
Yes, RTV smells bad (out gasses) when it cures, but I have never seen corrosion as a direct result of it in my 15+ years in the electronics industry. I'm not saying it can't happen, what I am saying is that it is very unlikely when provided with good ventilation while it cures.
Best Regards to all
Mark
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-11-06 23:36
David, the time factor you like is indeed present with hot-melt glues. The key cup can be reheated as many times as one likes to make adjustments to the pad alignment within the cup. Once silicone has set, no more adjustments are possible.
I lump contact cement together with silicone adhesives only with respect to them permanently setting, so no further adjustments can be made. I am sorry if my statement seemed to imply more.
Regarding removal, what you are using must be very different from the extremely tenacious silicone ahesives I have encountered. There is an enormous range out there.
You say you have had no problem with corrosion. I have seen a catalogue of silivone adhesives where certain products are listed as "does not corrode copper". You may have struck it lucky with the one you use. I think that if you are going to encourage others to use silicones then perhaps you need to be a bit more specific about which one(s) are tried and tested.
Mark, I am sure the corrosive types would not be available from the suppliers to the electronics trade.
Best regards
Gordon
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2003-11-07 19:14
Gordon (NZ), the silicone glue I have used most frequently is General Electric's Silicone II 'sealant', which is the most commonly available brand and type in my area (Washington, DC USA). You're absolutely right that there is a wide variety of manufacturers and formulations and the differences between these could be crucial to their feasibility for use in instrument repair. The GE silicone is fairly tenacious when cured, but can still be scraped/peeled out pretty easily when necessary. As for tarnishing: maybe I've skewed my own results because I always wipe down the keys with a cotton cloth or towel after every use of the clarinet --- perhaps those folks who rarely or never wipe their keys might experience a greater degree of accelerated corrosion or tarnishing than I would. That said, nobody who has purchased any of my overhauled clarinets or saxes over the years has complained to me about excessive tarnishing or corrosion, but maybe I've just been lucky.
DS
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2003-11-07 21:25
<<<Seat the pad (preferably using a leak light) then let the silicone glue air-dry (takes less than an hour).
<<<I like having at least ten minutes for a pad to seat while silicone glue starts to 'skin' --- lets me check the seating with a leak light.
It takes for me about 20 seconds to install and seat a pad. I have an open mind for any new and better method that would speed-up my work. Why do I want to waist my time on this "silicone" phenomena?
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2003-11-07 21:38
Look, guys, this is the last I'll say about silicone glue, and it's an important point I've failed to mention up to now: silicone glue does take an hour or more to set completely, but you can continue working on the instrument IMMEDIATELY after putting the pad in the cup. Even with a normally-open pad, the silicone glue has enough initial tack to hold the pad in position IMMEDIATELY. Thus there is no wasted time whatsoever -- the process is as fast or even faster than the traditional methods. I apologize for not making this point before.
Gotta run.......donkey's hungry............
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2003-11-08 03:52
Am I the only person still alive who irons leather pads? (A real question.)
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2003-11-10 15:36
I have recently had the privilege of consulting and delving into the prior art re: a new plastic padding method, and obtaining some trained-repairer's experience-comments, so the above discussions are appreciated. Will provide an EM contact via an EM to me, if anyone desires. Don Don
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Author: BobD
Date: 2003-11-10 17:40
I wonder if the silicone method would be of any advantage on some saxophone pads where the key is lacquered........
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2003-11-10 20:39
BobD,
Absolutely. I do all sax repads with the silicone glue also --- no need to burn lacquer.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-11-10 20:57
There is no need to burn lacquer with hot melt glues. I hope that was not implied!
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2003-11-10 22:09
Gordon, you're right, sorry about that.....(not even clumsy I could burn lacquer with hot-melt glue).
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-11-11 09:33
Hmm!
To clarify, there is no need to burn lacquer when using hot melt glues.
Post Edited (2003-11-11 09:33)
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