 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Matt Locker
Date: 2003-10-30 11:52
I've owned my Yamaha SE-V now for almost 3 years. I have always really liked the sound but it was very resistant playing mid-staff B/C which frustrated me to no end. However over about the last 6 months or so the instrument has "morphed" into a thing of beauty. It seems that overall it's settled in, has become a really nicely balanced instrument, and just plays easier/better. I have not had any pads replaced in about the last year or so, but for about a year now I have been using the little "Buffet Thingy" that keeps the large pads closed on the lower joint. I suspect this has a lot to do with the new balance but could be totally wrong. I purchased the Thingy in an effort to overcome this resistance, thinking that by forcing constant contact between pad/tonehole any variations would be compensated for. I have had the horn checked for leaks a number of times, and my teacher also felt that there was nothing wrong. Actually, he really liked the instrument. Whatever, this clarinet is now everything I wanted in my instrument.
I use a VD B45 with Mitchell Lurie Premium 4.0 and a Hite Ligature, just in case anyone wants to know.
So, has anyone else out there had this happen? What other reasons are there for this to occur? Other success stories using the "Thingy"?
MOO,
Matt
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2003-10-30 13:34
I wonder if your pads finally seated properly.
Leaks can make an instrument balky, and resistant.
If this is the case, you may experience a similar failure when the pad material begins to wear.
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Author: krazykarl
Date: 2003-10-30 16:04
Matt, where did you get that "buffet thingy"? I've been looking to purchase one as the climate around here makes my pads loose their seat very easiy.
-Karl-
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Author: Matt Locker
Date: 2003-10-30 17:41
Karl:
I got it from Muncie (sp?) WInds somewhere in the Carolina's.
MOO,
Matt
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2003-10-30 17:57
The recent solar electrical storm has caused your thingy to expand and your clarinet to settle-in.
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Author: Brenda
Date: 2003-10-30 18:05
Those "thingys" are called Buffet key clamps. Muncy Winds used to have them, a recent check didn't locate them but it's worth asking them anyway. They're expensive though, about $12.00 U.S. They should probably be a buck or two at the most. Anyway, most people will just use Velcro or some other kind of non-rubber material to press down the key so that the pad stays in contact with the tone hole. It's probably one of the more difficult pads to train to stay in place because it's a large one. Keeping the key pressed during storage makes the pad conform exactly to the tone hole.
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2003-10-30 19:49
No "thingys" are necessary for properly installed and seated pads.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2003-10-30 21:28
To add to Vytas' comment, the pad clamps may actually degrade the seal in the long term and cause accelerated deterioration of the pad --- keep in mind that a pad, while it should take a certain amount of permanent 'set' to conform to its tonehole, also needs to retain a certain amount of resilience ('give' or 'springiness') in order to conform to slight misalignments resulting from wear, bits of dirt or grunge on the tonehole rim, etc. When you keep a pad clamped to its tonehole all the time, you essentially increase the percentage of permanent, non-recoverable 'set' and decrease the available resilience or 'give' available to handle misalignments or gunk/debris. Thus you may end up reducing the ability of the pad to seat properly over time. Plus, the continued proximity of the pad to the bore of the instrument, if it's clamped all the time by the "thingy", could prevent the pad from airing out and drying properly -- thus bringing on premature rot and decay, much like the argument levied against keeping those "Pad-Saver" swabs inside the clarinet all the time. These are just my speculations, however; I have no scientific evidence pro or con.
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Author: Henry
Date: 2003-10-30 22:10
David: All the things you say are (or may be) "true" and are often debated in the sax community where key clamps are used more regularly, although, there also, the opinions are very divided. I must add, though, that what you say about the negatives of clamping the normally-open keys should be equally valid, but even more strongly, for the normally-closed keys. Perhaps one could say that the clamps should not exert a larger force than that applied by the springs of the normally closed keys. So don't overdo it, forcewise!
Henry
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Author: Mark Pinner
Date: 2003-10-31 10:16
Sounds like a seating "thingy". The pro and custom Yamaha instruments shipped here, Australia, have leather pads. It may be different elsewhere. A well seated leather pad is IMHO the best. If the pad E/B was not seated the clamping "thingy" has probably helped it to get a proper seat over time. Another adjustment often needed, or advisable, on wooden Yamahas is the crows foot cork. The tend to use a composite type of cork which eventually beds in correctly but is often to proud out of the factory. After a while it tends to compress causing the reverse problem. It i sbest off being replaced with natural cork, this can be done to the bridge at the same time. Upper level Yamahas get very little airplay on this board which is pity. I have been using one for ages now and I am extremely happy and would heartily recommend Yamaha.
Disclaimer: I do not work for Yamaha or a Yamaha dealer.
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Author: Matt Locker
Date: 2003-10-31 11:27
Mark:
Thanks for the input. I do know that this clarinet has all natural corks, as I had asked the regional Yamaha representative that same question. I would agree that it seems like a "seating" issue. I'm thinking of taking the instrument to a different tech who I've worked with before. Could be worth a try.
I would have to ask Dave - as Henry did also - how the lower joint pads (normally open & closed) differ from the always closed pads in the upper joint? It seems like what's bad for the goose would be equally bad for the gander.
Another great discussion.
MOO,
Matt
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2003-10-31 16:16
Henry and Matt,
You make a good point about the normally-closed pads being 'always clamped', and certainly that's true --- they are what they are, and if in fact being 'clamped' all the time accelerates degradation of the pad, then so be it, I don't think it would be worth the effort to design 'reverse-thingies' to keep those pads OPEN while the clarinet is stored. Having said that, I'm merely questioning whether we really should go to the extra effort and expense of using key clamps on the normally-open pads. My gut feel says we needn't --- I agree with Mark Pinner that a well-seated pad of good construction (I also favor leather) is all that's needed --- additional clamping is at best unnecessary and at worst counterproductive.
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Author: Henry
Date: 2003-10-31 16:32
Dave...I tend to agree with you. Although I do have a set of (3) key clamps for my alto sax, I have decided not to use them for the very reasons you cited. But who knows? The debate about these things never seems to stop, at least in the sax world.
Henry
P.S. The pads on my Dolnet alto sax are as old as the instrument, i.e., 45-50 years (I bought it new)! Although I think the horn still plays very well, I have decided it is time for a complete overhaul, or at least a repad. My big problem is whether I should go for pad resonators or not (the originals do not have them). Any thoughts on this question, Dave? I am happy with the sound as is. If all the resonators do is to make the sax louder, I don't need them. The leader of the big band I play in often "accuses" me of being to loud as it is!!!!
Post Edited (2003-10-31 16:43)
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2003-10-31 17:26
Henry,
I don't really subscribe to the well-established but (as far as I know) scientifically-unsubstantiated 'fact' that resonators increase the loudness and/or projection of saxes --- show me the data! I think that leather pads, at least in the larger sizes (same applies to the low clarinets) need something in the center to keep the material from sagging down into the tonehole -- a simple rivet is sufficient, though on large pads a resonator is better because it supports a greater surface area. Loudness is much more a function of (a) the player, (2) the mouthpiece, (3) the instrument itself (bore/taper dimensions) and (4) the degree of pad sealing.
By the way, I have a 1930's-vintage metal clarinet with bright red leather pads which I assume are original or at least old, and it plays great with those pads today. They can last a long time with proper care!
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Author: Henry
Date: 2003-10-31 17:30
Quite a coincidence! The (original) pads on my Dolnet alto sax are bright red as well!
Henry
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Author: saxlite
Date: 2003-10-31 18:16
Concerning the effect of resonators--I recently repadded an older Conn Tenor using plastic domed resonators similar to the current Selmer type. The original pads had only a small rivet. The owner was delighted with the result- it seemed to both of us that the horn was far more powerful, slightly brighter, and generally more satisfying (to him). Of, course, a new set of pads and proper adjustment will provide much of the improvement observed, but I believe the resonators gave the horn more response. Soft leather is a good damping material; covering as much as possible reduces this damping effect. So, choose based on the tonal response you are seeking: brighter or darker timbre.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2003-10-31 18:30
saxlite,
While I can't argue with the veracity of your observation that the Conn tenor sounded different after the repad, my point is that we really have no way of telling how much of that effect was caused by the TYPE of pads used, and how much was caused by the general improvements in pad sealing, venting (stack height increases), etc, which come with a good overhaul. I agree that intuitively it would seem that since pad material is an acoustic damper (within a certain limited frequency range, by the way) that the more pad area is exposed, the more damping would occur....but one thing that's true about acoustics (as well as most other fluid mechanics fields of study) is that what's intuitively obviously is not always correct! Many phenomena in acoustics (or aerodynamics or hydrodynamics) run completely counter to common sense or intuition. To test the effect of resonators properly, we'd need to take a good-sized lot of nominally-identical make/model saxes in identical condition, and do identical repads on them, varying only the type of pad used, then do a bunch of double-blind listening tests to determine the audible effects. Not likely to see a test like this anytime soon!
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Author: saxlite
Date: 2003-11-01 01:04
David---agreed that the experimental conclusion was drawn upon a non-double- blind monumental sample size of exactly one---but there was no doubt in both the owner and my ears that this (one) horn was transformed to some extent. Several long conversations with the pad expert at Ferree's led me to choosing this pad/ resonator style-it delivered as he had promised. To be certain, ther are lots of uncontrolled variables operating here, but I think the principal change was the addition of resonators. Perhaps some of the top sax guys would wish to comment further....??
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Author: Wes
Date: 2003-11-01 04:34
In regard to the clarinet mentioned, one should look very carefully at the tonehole edges to make sure that there are no tiny chips in them, causing small leaks. I do this with a magnifier. If there are chips, then the tonehole edge can be restored by a competent repairer.
When resonators are used on sax pads, they often will be applied so that little of the leather shows to the inside of the bore. Thus, there is little leakage through the tiny holes in the leather to the outside. This leakage can also be minimized by sealing the pads with a sealant to plug up the holes. That leather pads leak through the tiny holes can be verified by blowing through them with your mouth.
Another effect of pad resonators is to minimize absorption of sound by leather pads and to increase reflection of sound back into the bore. Happy Halloween!
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