 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: diz
Date: 2003-10-29 00:14
Someone asked me why it's only clarinets (essentially) in the woodwind section of an orchestra that transpose (yes, to the pedants I know the piccolo and cor anglais transpose) ... to make flats and sharps easier to deal with (as the theory goes) and do flute, oboe and bassoon players have an easier time of it due to the fact that their keywork is better thought out and/or that they overblow the octave.
I said "dunno, never thought about it but I'll ask around".
Any enlightenment would be appreciated.
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Author: Dee
Date: 2003-10-29 00:36
Saxophones are also transposing instruments.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2003-10-29 00:46
I'm confused. If you transpose, wouldn't you be in a different key than the rest of the band? Or do you mean instead of playing a Bb clarinet in the key of D# you use an A clarinet in the key of D? (I hope I got all my letters right . . .)
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: lycfmtkl
Date: 2003-10-29 01:42
It has been long tradition that music for clarinet is writtern in Bb or A. And at the same time most clarinets are produced in the same keys as the music too. It is not a matter of easy playing for the instrument but a tradition since the baroque period in the 17th century.
A C clarinet is not common as most of the sheet music were written in Bb or A.
Correct me if I am wrong.
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Author: Henry
Date: 2003-10-29 02:15
"It has been long tradition that music for clarinet is written in Bb or A."
Wow, if that were true we wouldn't have to bother practicing our scales, would we?
Henry
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Author: lycfmtkl
Date: 2003-10-29 02:23
Sorry, I mean music for clarinet are tranposed to suit the Bb or A clarinet.
Forgive me as English is not my mother language.
My previous message should be written,
" It has been long tradition that shhet music for clainet has been transposed to suit the instruments that pitched in Bb or A. It is not a matter of easy playing for the instrument but a tradtion since the baroque period in the 17 th century. A C clarinet is not commonly used as most of the sheet music are written for the Bb or A instrument "
Is it more acceptable ?
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Author: ron b
Date: 2003-10-29 04:20
Both your posts seem quite clear to me, lycfmtkl.
- r![[cool]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/cool.gif) n b -
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Author: GBK
Date: 2003-10-29 05:08
Diz...The answer to your question concerning as to why clarinets are transposing instruments is actually two- fold:
First, the early 18th century clarinets, with only a few keys, by today's standards were quite primitive. Playing in the common flat key signatures of Bb, F, Eb or the sharp key signatures of A, D, G would have been a fingering nightmare. Thus, clarinets were built in Bb (to be used for the flat key signatures), in A and D (for the sharp key signatures), in C (for the key of C) and we even find some rarer clarinets (ex: clarinet in B).
As the clarinet progressed, with more keys added to the body, fingering became less cumbersome, so by the time we reach the 13 keyed clarinet of the 1800's, the necessity of having many different pitched clarinets was reduced down to 3 (Bb, A and C). When Boehm completes the lineage with his "full Boehm system", theoretically every key could be played on any clarinet. The clarinets that became the most favored to use were the Bb and A.
The second reason (which goes in tandem with the first) as to why clarinets are transposing instruments has to do with tone quality. Composers and performers soon realized that the clarinet in the key of C had a strident, less pleasing sound than a clarinet pitched slightly lower (Bb or A). Thus, these became tonally favored choices. The Bb clarinet first became the popular choice as a solo and orchestral instrument by the Mannheim school. Mozart took it one step further by soon discovering and exploiting the darker quality of a clarinet pitched in A. The precedent was then set, as Weber, Spohr, Brahms and other composers wrote concerti and chamber music for a specific clarinet based on the sound palette desired.
That now begs the question as to whether orchestral composers considered their clarinet choice based on the key signature of the piece or by the tone color. Did Strauss really hear a difference between the D and Eb clarinet?
Another debate for another day...GBK
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2003-10-29 20:00
And here's yet another debate for yet another day: why did some relatively modern composers (Ravel, Rachmaninoff, Mahler I think) write parts for the nearly non-existent BASS clarinet in "A", even though at that time the Boehm system allowing relatively easy playing in all keys was fully developed and incorporated into the bass clarinet? I'm especially upset with Monsieur Ravel for having written all those nasty notes in "La Valse" for bass clarinet in "A"..............
Bitter Bass Boy
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Author: Mark Pinner
Date: 2003-10-29 21:14
The practice of writing for transposing instruments also has another origin. Writing for instruments as transposing also has its origins in military, brass and reeds history. The use of the treble clef in this manner was used to facilitate players changeing instruments without needing to learn a new clef.
In a British brass band the parts for all instruments, cornets, saxhorns and tubas are written in the treble clef from the Eb soprano cornet down to the BBb tuba as transposing instruments, with the exception for some reason of the bass trombone which is bass clef, non transposing, and older arrangements where the tenor trombones are in tenor clef non transposing, in modern arrangements they too are Bb transposing. This means that any player can read and finger the part for any other instrument only needing to adapt embouchure. The same phenomena occurs with saxophones which are all written as transposing instruments in the treble clef.
The practice stems from instrumental developments around the end of the 18th century and early nineteenth century. At the prompting of Lieutenant General Compte Rumigny Adolphe Sax and to a lesser extent a bandmaster called Sarrus, the inventor of the Sarrusophone, set about developing uniform sets of instruments of different pitches to improve the sound of French military bands. Instruments made in sets were originally the ophicleide family and the keyed bugle and with the adoption of the valve to brass instruments other sets of instruments were possible. Early attempts, brass, by Sax were now obsolete horns like sax trombas and clarichors in alternating pitches clarichors. Sax also made clarinets in alternating sets and was primarily responsible for the development of the bass clarinet. The saxophone is generally acknowledged as being a single reed adaption of the brass ophicleide, again both of these instruments were made in alternating pitch sets originally Ab and Db then Eb/Bb and for orchestral use F/C. Shortly after the saxophone came the saxhorn family from flugelhorns, tenorhorns(altos), baritones (tenors) and bass models. These became the backbone of brass bands and brass and reed bands.
The system of writing for all these instruments, saxhorns, saxophones and even clarinets, as treble clef transposing was a means of facilitating players swapping without the drama of learning to re-read music. In Europe there is also a practice of writing bass clef transposing music. There is evidence of this in some of Wagner's bass clarinet writing which is often Bb or A bass clef transposing.
I don't think it is any easier for the other orchestral winds to cope with difficult keys. The main difficulty with the clarinet is crossing the break and using the throat keys, specifically the Gb-Ab-Bb-C progression which is made easier by a fingering shift to G-A-B-C#, hence a clarinet a semi-tone either direction covers most permutations. There are also the timbre issues C vs Bb and A.
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Author: diz
Date: 2003-10-29 22:58
At last, someone who actually read my thread. Thank Mark, it's that overblowing trick that's the difficulty and it's realted need for throat notes.
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Author: diz
Date: 2003-10-30 20:58
Also - saxophones are NOT all transposing instruments, recently saw a beautiful one pitched in C.
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Author: Pam H.
Date: 2003-10-30 23:03
Diz- unless I'm mistaken, the picollo is pitched in "C" and wouldn't be a transposing instrument - unless the fact that it sounds an octave higher than a regular C flute makes it so?
Not trying to point out mistakes, it was just nagging at me. I'm sure y'all will correct me if I'm wrong. ![[wink]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie3.gif)
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Author: diz
Date: 2003-10-30 23:11
No need to correct anyone here - afterall this is a forum for discussion and diverse opinions, however, the piccolo is, strictly, a transposing instrument ... the fact that it's transposition is still in the key of C is irrelevant - it transposes up the octave.
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Author: Mark Pinner
Date: 2003-10-31 09:59
Diz
I have 2 C melody saxes. To be pedantic they are transposing in the reverse manner to the piccolo. The are concert but sound 1 octave lower. The only non transposing saxophone is one of the rarest made, the C soprano. Only the F mezzo, F baritone and C bass, which have all been made, are more rare excluding contrabass models.
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