 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Wayne Thompson
Date: 2003-10-21 18:53
Does anyone know the differences in thickness in real silver plating?
I'm curious because the term "heavily plated' comes up in marketing and I admit I'm influenced by it.
From memory, Rossi uses the term for his key plating, Buffet uses the term for their Prestige key plating. And here is an old ad for Silver Kings which uses the term: http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/download.html/1,50/Silver_King%20Ad.jpg
Some questions:
What is the range of thicknesses of silver plating that is used in instrument making?
Is the term ever used simply for marketing hype when it is not real? (In other words, when the silver is not particularly thick.)
Now that major manufacturers use silver on many models (eg Buffet E-11, etc), is the thickness of the plating one of the quality differences between models? If so, how much does the plating vary?
Do any of you have experiences with the the silver plating wearing out surprising fast?
Wayne Thompson
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Author: BobD
Date: 2003-10-21 20:56
No, I don't know and I wonder what difference it would make if one did know. Keywork for the most part is not a flat surface and so the actual thickness will vary. QC control, if it exists, probably involves controlling variables so that a flat plate immersed with the keys will contain thicknesses between some limits. So, if you thought your heavily plated keywork was not heavily plated what recourse would you have? All you really have to go on is the maker's reputation and your experience. Silver plating is very vulnerable to some peoples' perspiration.....call it wear or corrosion as you wish. In short, your primary question is relatively irrelevant.....in my opinion.
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2003-10-21 23:56
I suppose 'heavily' plated means the amount of time and rate of deposition are BOTH longer than the average with larger makers.
The difference may work out to a few atoms depth difference, but that difference could translate into years more wear, in key areas.
Over a nickel substrate, silver appears opaque at 0.000005 inches, more than 1000 Angstrom. I suppose anything more than this may be considered 'heavy' for advertising purposes, if the quantity is not specified.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-10-22 00:01
In short, 'heavy' could mean barely thicker than 1000 Angstroms, up to hundreds of times thicker, as was probably traditionally done on top quality "EPNS" cutlery. That took pretty heavy wear before exposing the base metal.
I would attach zero meaning to the word when it is used for advertising.
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Author: Terry Horlick
Date: 2003-10-22 05:32
Since it is used as advertisement hype, "heavily plated" really means the plating is thick enough that the polishing did not wear through it. Being honest that is likely all they can say.
IMHO, TH
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-10-22 09:58
Interesting statement from http://www.silvabronz.co.uk/main/silver.html
"The general thickness of silver plating is twenty microns (0.02 mm). The generally accepted rule, with normal use is that each micron of plating thickness provides 1 year of life of wear."
This is for jewellery. The wear on clarinet keys may well be significantly more.
More interesting comments on thickness for silverware:
http://www.silvabronz.co.uk/main/silver.html
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-10-22 09:59
I have worked on old Chinese clarinets where the silver plating seems very robust indeed, lasting a lot better than that on some current French Instruments.
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2003-10-22 14:08
Remember that disposal of heavy metal tailings can be expensive.
It's not the raw materials, so much as the cost of handling, that makes plating a costly business.
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Author: Wayne Thompson
Date: 2003-10-22 17:13
So, based on the 1 micron per year, I might guess that musical instrument silver plating could be 10 or 20 or 40 microns. (By the way the Silvabronz website was interesting; I assume you repairers use companies like that for replating keys and sax bodies and such.)
Synonymous, I understand your point, but once a company starts the process, the time spent in the process and the amount of waste products would still somewhat proportional to the thickness of the resulting plating. I still think that a company might have a thinner plate on a student model.
Wayne Thompson
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-10-22 22:09
That is not necessarily true.
Evidence, regularly reported in this forum, and seen by repairers, suggests that some current pro instruments have a very thin plating. Perhaps less than 10 microns even.
The bean counters have definitely left their mark on some 'top-end' clarinets.
I would expect the greatest cost for electroplating to be time spent in the bath. More time = thicker plating.
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Author: Wayne Thompson
Date: 2003-10-23 07:12
I hear you, Gordon. I hadn't heard these stories about thin plating on pro instruments.... When I started this thread, I was assuming that Rossi, Buffet, and the historical King were all making thick, quality plating. You agree with me that a company might cut costs by making the plating thinner. Do you think that plating on an E-11 is thinner than on a Prestige?
Wayne Thompson
PS What are the old Chinese manufacturers that you have seen that had heavy silver plate? This is probably an interesting story. If you haven't talked about them before, would you consider a separate thread to tell us?
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-10-23 07:31
I have a poor memory, so I cannot tell you which model(s) of Buffet disappointed me with their plating.
It is Lark clarinets which have the long-lasting, non-pitting plating, seemingly in spite of the hard rubber of the body giving off sulphur and tarnishing the silver.
Mind you, it is possibly because they are probably not played as much as some makes.
They are awful clarinets. Don't consider getting one!
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Author: BobD
Date: 2003-10-23 14:23
The biggest cost in plating is meeting government environmental requirements. Where none exist the cost is appreciably lower....as in some countries outside the U.S.
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2003-10-23 15:21
What BobD said... it's the cost of handling the materials, not the materials.
I've seen some horrific industrial conditions in Northern China.
The products were solid, and reasonably well made.
The countryside looks like Sudbury, Ontario.
********
There's no reason why you couldn't replate an instrument, either.
That's time consuming, but not terribly expensive.
There are credible, and effective home systems that use non-toxic solutions; those mainly leave Cyanide out of the mix.
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Author: jim lande
Date: 2003-11-10 00:37
ROBD wrote
>The biggest cost in plating is meeting government
>environmental requirements. Where none exist the
>cost is appreciably lower....as in some countries outside the U.S.
No, the cost is the same or even higher where there are no environmental regulations. The question is who pays. Environmental laws mean that the producer (consumer) pay more, but people who live "downstream" pay more -- in terms of health cost, lost productivity in the land, etc.
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Author: eddiec ★2017
Date: 2003-11-10 03:25
As far as lifetime goes -
I've been around a 50s era Selmer that had solid German silver keys (the stuff that dulls quickly and will turn green and other colors).
After two college careers and quite a bit of other playing over the years, the rings are worn more than halfway through and shaped to fit the fingers. I realize this alloy is probably a lot softer than the usual silver.
That said, this metal feels really wonderful to the fingers! It has the perfect texture and grip for me. Sure, it will get to look pretty crummy, but I really like the character and "retro" look. I wish it was more commonly available on new instruments.
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Author: Wayne Thompson
Date: 2003-11-10 05:12
Eddiec,
My understanding is that 'german silver' is the same as 'nickle silver', and it has long been a favorite of instrument makers for all the reasons you mention. But it has no 'real' silver in it. It is common on intruments today, either as is, or under the real silver plating that I was asking about. You can go to the store tomorrow and buy an R-13 with either nickle silver or silver plated keys.
Wayne
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