 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Calvin
Date: 1999-11-11 04:08
Has anybody heard of David Shifrin? Comments?
What about Thea King?
Thanks.
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Author: Graham Elliott
Date: 1999-11-11 08:10
Thea King:- Pupil (and wife) of Fred Thurston. Principal of the English Chamber Orchestra. Numerous recordings on the Hyperion label (if you want to sample I would recommend her account of the Herbert Howells Sonata). She plays (played) on Buffets, and is a well respected teacher. Her playing polarises opinion. It is the antithesis of the de Peyer style.
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Author: bigcage
Date: 1999-11-11 10:16
Shifrin did play at least one season with Cleveland and then was off to Michigan I think. Lalo Schifrin is his uncle. Most of his work is chamber music and I believe he is director of chamber music for Lincoln Center. My memory is not perfect and corrections to this info are gladly invited.
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Author: D.B.
Date: 1999-11-11 11:39
Yes, you are correct. They do spell their names differently, but they are truly related by blood. Shifrin got the Principal job in CLeveland at age 23 (if I remember correctly). Nice guy - great teacher, player.
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Author: Mario
Date: 1999-11-11 12:50
None of them are "grand masters", albeit they are competent and pleasant to listen to. Thea King in particular recorded on Hyperion British music that is hard to find elsewhere in such a package. As to Shiffrin, his recordings are standard and mainstream. The exception to this general comment is his recording of the Brahms quintet which is one of the best I have heard.
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Author: ted
Date: 1999-11-11 14:02
...just curious. Who, in your opinionn are the "grand masters".
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Author: steve
Date: 1999-11-11 14:22
mario said: None of them are "grand masters",
grand master status is in the ear of the behearer, imho, but I still lived in cleveland when shifrin was principal....he played beautifully, albeit he wasn't marcellus...then again, neither is anyone else by definition
shifrin's brahms quintet rec is gorgeous, imho, as is a recording of mozart concerto on basset clarinet...I heard he left cleveland because of artistic differences with maazel, but don't quote me on that...
any way you cut it, for the past 50 years, cleveland has been blessed with amazing clarinet players on all chairs....
not bad for the nephew of the composer of the mission impossible theme, and I think the hawaii 5-0 theme, that has some of the worst clarinet playing ever heard in a tv theme...
s.
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Author: Mario
Date: 1999-11-11 15:45
Who are the grand masters? A master is a leader, a guru, a beacon that is used to define, compare, grow. He/she teaches, performs, influences. He/she is revered. If he/she is part of a sympony, he/she also has an active solist career.
There are many very competent clarinists out there that are a real joy to listen to (King and shiffrin are part of them). There few who will be remembered when they die.
So, who are the grand Masters of today (still alive, kicking and playing)? This is a nice debate. Here is the list of the grand master I know (forgive the spelling. I am typing away from home - I accept that I do not them all).
In classical music:
Germany: Leister, Klocker
France: ???? (many excellent players, but no guru).
Britain: Brymer, de Peyer
Canada: Campbell
US: So many good players and teachers. But any guru? Maybe Stoltzman (contreversial). Many of the dead orchestral players would have fell in this category (Marcellus, Wright for instance).
Hungary: Kovacs, Balog (actually, hungarian clarinetists are major music makers in their culture. They are revered much more than we realize in our parts).
East European Gipsy: Papasov (if you do not know this guy, you are missing on the the absolute master of the tzigan clarinet. His music is simply beautiful).
Keltzmer:Goria Fieldman
Jazz: Daniels.
A good way to see whether this list is a real guru list is to ask oneself the question: Should we be allowed to listened only to the folks in the list, would we be missing something of substance, or are they capable, by themselves to cover the whole repertoire fully and deeply, bringing joy to all in the process.
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Author: Graham Elliott
Date: 1999-11-11 15:52
Mario's list of "grand masters" included Klocker. I second that one, although I am not comfortable with a list of luminaries as such.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 1999-11-11 16:10
Graham Elliott wrote:
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Mario's list of "grand masters" included Klocker. I second that one, although I am not comfortable with a list of luminaries as such.
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I will second that one once he allows his "discoveries" to be publically viewed. Until then - as a clarinetist, possibly; as a scholar - no.
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Author: William
Date: 1999-11-11 16:29
Gerus???? In jazz, I have an addition that many of you probably have never heard of--Chuck Hedges, of the Milwaukee area. He is a regular at Andy's, in Chicago, and is the BEST jazz clarinetist I have ever heard in person (list includes, Goodman, Defranco and Daniels).
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Author: Mario
Date: 1999-11-11 17:05
I also understand that, in Cincinati, there is an absolutely wondeful * but very private * jazz clarinetist that would put all the known guys to shame.
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Author: STuart
Date: 1999-11-11 18:19
I just saw Shrfrin in San Jose.
He sounds beautiful.
He played Debussy and Weber.
My favorite recording is of the Bernard Hermann quintet.
That music fits right inside my heart, and sometimes
I feel a specific emotional need for it.
I've been thinking lateley that its useless to revere a musician. That its additional to experience of actually hearing their art. Without impressiveness how would our opinions of masters change?
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Author: Ken Shaw
Date: 1999-11-11 18:56
Calvin wrote:
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Has anybody heard of David Shifrin? Comments?
What about Thea King?
Thanks.
Calvin -
David Shifrin is a major talent. He can do everything, and also has branched out as an organizer and administrator. I was not completely satisfied by his earlier records, which were technically perfect but musically constipated. However, he has gotten much better over the years. He played the Mozart Quintet a couple of years ago on a live broadcast from Lincoln Center that was truly memorable.
He has ruffled a lot of feathers over the years. He took the Cleveland job when Marcellus retired, and then left almost immediately. He went to California and competed in numerous auditions, won them all but didn't take the jobs. I'm told he's a fine teacher.
Thea King is a decent but not great player, either in person or on her many recordings, which are almost always unsatisfactory. Her technical command is simply insufficient, and to play all the notes she has to slow WAY down on the hard passages, and even then she barely staggers through. Also, she overcontrolls her playing, very seldom expressing anything interesting. Her teacher and husband, Frederick Thurston, was a dazzling player. If you can find his Stanford Sonata, grab it. It's as good as it could possibly be. King's recording, particularly by comparison with Thurston's, is clumsy and bland. Also, she controls Thurston's estate and refuses to let any of his recordings be reissued, depriving the clarinet world of one of the finest players ever.
She does have a good sound, and a particular feeling for Brahms. Her Brahms Sonatas and Quintet are, I think, her only records that compete with the best versions. Beware her Mozart Concerto and Quintet, which she recorded on a Selmer basset clarinet. I played that instrument at the Clarinet Congress in London several years ago and thought it was dreadful -- out of tune, very uneven in tone color and resistance, clumsy to finger and unpleasant in almost every way. The well known designer Ted Planas, who had built the instrument, was so embarrassed by it that he withdrew it from exhibition. King's Mozart record demonstrates all of the instrument's bad qualities. She's constantly fighting it just to get the notes out and has nothing left to make nuances, or music. At least that's my opinion.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: steve
Date: 1999-11-11 19:55
stuart said: "I've been thinking lateley that its useless to revere a musician. That its additional to experience of actually hearing their art."
I think stuart has a point there...basically what we do is operate a machine called a clarinet...hopefully we can combine who we are with the wishes of the composer and operate the machine to make music...so who's the grandmaster??...in the case of shifrin playing the brahms quintet, its brahms, mostly....;)
s.
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Author: Tobin Coleman
Date: 1999-11-11 20:33
Steve is right about Lalo and the TV themes.
But Lalo also wrote a choral piece called "Rock Requiem" during the Vietnam War, a requiem for our Vietnam Vets that comes to mind this vets day.
I sang in the East Coast premier of Rock Requiem in Nyack, New York (just up the Hudson from NYC) in, I believe, the spring of 1972 or 1973. Singers were picked from by church choir directors in the surrounding towns.
The instrumentation included electric guitars and bass along with brass and woodwind parts. The Agnus Dei was done in a round, with a haunting melody that stays with me even today. If anyone knows of a recording of any performance of this requiem I'd love to get my hands on one.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 1999-11-11 20:51
Rock Requiem: 1971 - Verve V6-8801
From http://www.siteworks.com/szabo/ls_rev.htm
"Out of print and hard to find, this was released at a time when "rock opera" and concept themes were popular (or interesting to consider). Deftly mixing elements of rock, gospel, jazz and secular music, Schifrin employs a choir and LA studio musicians in this unusual and fascinating tribute "for the dead in the Southeast Asia War." Predating "Godspell" and "Jesus Christ Superstar", this stands as a sequel of sorts to Schifrin's cantata, The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich (1968) and the liturgical Jazz Suite on the Mass Texts (as recorded by Paul Horn in 1964). Worth the attention."
Aeon Music (http://www.aeonmusic.com/aeon-s.html) has a copy for sale for $4.00
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Author: Becky
Date: 1999-11-12 00:18
I heard David Shifrin play last Saturday. He performed Weber Concerto No. 2 and Rossini Introduction, Theme, and Variations. Both were beautifully performed. The Rossini was unbelievable. I got a chance to talk with him after the performance, and although a bit "aloof" from commoners such as myself, he was pretty nice to talk to, and also very knowledgable. He gave me quite a bit of good advice on some clarinet questions I had.
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Author: ted
Date: 1999-11-12 13:59
Ken,
I have read many of your posts and greatly value your opinions. I was somewhat intrigued by your comments on Thea King's technical command of the clarinet. I have heard her play the Weber Concertos, a Crusell Concerto, and Spohr's Variations and, though her playing didn't excite me, I did not get the impression she was struggling technically in those recordings. Could you eleborate on your earlier statement, maybe mentioning specific recordings?
Some of her late husband's, Frederick Thurston, recordings are on the Clarinet Historical Recordings CDs. Though the pieces were short and unfamiliar to me, I thought his playing was exceptional and exciting. Like you, I also would love to hear more more of his recordings.
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Author: Ken Shaw
Date: 1999-11-12 19:11
ted wrote:
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Could you eleborate on your earlier statement [about Thea King's technical limitations], maybe mentioning specific recordings?
Ted -
Her recordings are listed at http://www.hyperion-records.co.uk/index.html. Go to the Artist listings and then to her listings. Any of the English music records, particularly the concerto recordings, will show the problem. Try the Arnold, Britten and Maconchy concertos (CDA66634), the Cooke, Jacob and Rawsthorne concertos (CDA66031) or the Stanford and Finzi concertos (CDA66001). In each, she starts to labor as soon as the technical demands get beyond a moderate level. Particularly illustrative is the comparison between her and Thurston's recordings of the "Coaine" (lament) movement of the Stanford
sonata. The movement begins with a very difficult "rip" which Thurston tosses off, while King barely gets through.
Since the Thurston recordings are unavailable, the best comparisons are with Michael Collins and George MacDonald, both of whom have a big technique and can play the music without struggle.
Look, Thea King has been around forever, knows everybody, is a respected teacher and sells lots of recordings. There are lots of players who can rip through the notes without producing even a tiny bit of music, and King at least has some personality and a good sound. As I said, her recordings of Brahms - the sonatas, the quintet and the trio - rank with the best. At least to my ear, though, her Mozart and her English music recordings just don't pass muster.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Calvin
Date: 1999-11-15 12:24
Would you please elaborate on what the "de Peyer style" is?
Thank you!
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Author: Graham Elliott
Date: 1999-11-16 15:34
Calvin wrote:
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Would you please elaborate on what the "de Peyer style" is?
Thank you!
............
I think this refers to my comment:
De Peyer: Big fat blasting sound, little tonal complexity.
King (by contrast): Compact reedy complex sound, but not the same dynamic range or overall dynamic level.
I have heard both players live which helps reveal these differences.
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