 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2003-10-15 23:26
Hi,
I just acquired a Buffet Academy model and posted earlier about the cracked barrel which will be repaired soon. However, I have some questions about the model itself.
I know Mark C., Vytas, and Mark J. have made some major contributions to the task of placing this model within the Buffet lineup, but those ideas are well scattered in past postings. I'd like to try to pull those notions as well as any new knowledge about the Academy into one area.
Here is what I have: S# 87xxx, barrel trill key guard, needle spring C#/G#, area below the crow's foot bored out, screw anchors on large posts in the lower section, separate A and G# posts, complete Buffet Logo on both sections with Made in France on both sections as well - Academy Model below that, swoosh F#/B key, and no metal end caps. I do not have my calipers so I can't give you the bore dimensions. The clarinet plays well in tune throughout the registers.
Do I really have a rejected R-13? I have owned several Master Models in the past and loved every one but this clarinet seems to be a cut above. It came with the three stripes down Buffet C mouthpiece.
Thanks in advance for the responses!
HRL
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2003-10-16 00:35
Mr. Francois Kloc wrote:
"The Academy model from Buffet is an R13 that came with a little default (defect) on the stamp or scratch on the key work or something minor that doesn't affect the instrument but was to expensive at this time to fix. Then they came with the Academy model less expensive than the "regular" R13. The item number was R113. They are often great instruments. Today we could change a key or re-plating keys at lesser cost than before."
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2003-10-16 00:50
Thanks, Vytas. You seem to be one of the experts on this issue. So far, this clarinet shows great promise but needs a few adjustments and then I'll really put it through its paces.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2003-10-16 01:39
To add to the confusion, Hans Moennig often spoke of the pre-R13 "bad bore" Academy model clarinets.
These were contained in the serial numbers 39000 - 41000.
Your Academy clarinet (87xxx) is of the 2nd generation/designation of such instruments and by all accounts is in fact a rejected R-13 ...GBK
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2003-10-16 02:17
GBK,
Thanks for that info; not confusing at all. Looks like I got lucky. I did find the comment in past posts about the "bad bore" Academy models.
HRL
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Author: Mark P. Jasuta
Date: 2003-10-16 03:13
Hank,
It's definitely a "rejected R13". I have rebuilt many Buffet horns from many different years /periods. In all, the common denominator separating the "Pro" horns from the lesser horns was the cutouts under the right hand (lower) pinky keys.
Regards
Mark
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2003-10-16 03:24
Hi Mark,
I had hoped you would respond. I did not have your email address or I would have asked you, Mark C., and Vytas via email.
Thanks for the "affirmation of the information." I had a Master Model and it too had the cut-outs (plus all the other items I mentioned that the Academy has) giving credence to the notion that some of that model were R-13 rejects as well.
Any idea where the 87xxx series would be as far as production? The standard Buffet # would seem to indicate about 1964 to 66.
HRL
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Author: GBK
Date: 2003-10-16 03:42
Hank... Buffet produced about 15,000 Bb/A clarinets between 1964 and 1966.
The year 1964 started with serial #78094 and the year 1966 ended with serial #93203.
Just estimating @5000 units per year, your clarinet was probably manufactured in late 1965 or early 1966.
That's probably the best guess until any additional information comes forward...GBK
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Author: Fred
Date: 2003-10-16 11:59
By the way, I really love the way Buffets of that era sound. Alvin Swiney reported Marcellus played a clarinet from around the 87,500 vintage. Of course, his clarinet had a little help along the way.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2003-10-16 12:27
Hi Everyone,
I did check the website as Mark J suggested and the S# came up 1966 so GBK, you were right on. I wonder if this is a long lost Marcellus practice clarinet :-).
HRL
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Author: Denny G
Date: 2003-10-18 23:55
Congratulations on a great find, Hank! Missing you at MCB. Glad to see all is well with you.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2003-10-19 00:20
DG,
Hope you all are practicing on the Virtuoso Technique books I gave out before I left. The Nebraska Wind Symphony is a truly great group but I miss my pals in the MCB. I'll be back in May!! Don't let anyone sit in my chair.
HRL
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2004-01-13 14:06
Hi Everyone,
I just wanted to report back on the Buffet Academy that I acquired. After a little tweaking and some cork pads, I am happy to say that this clarinet may well become my #1.
I played it last night in wind symphony rehearsal and it was outstanding. The intonation is excellent (the 12th a slight bit wide but I am in the hunt for a 66mm Moennig or Chadash barrel to fix that).
For a 1965 Buffet, purchased at a "firesale" price, I am very fortunate.
HRL
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Author: javier garcia m
Date: 2004-01-13 20:05
Mark P. Jasuta wrote:
"the common denominator separating the "Pro" horns from the lesser horns was the cutouts under the right hand (lower) pinky keys."
what are the "cutouts" under the keys?
thanks
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2004-01-13 21:14
Hank,
I think the pedigree of your particular instrument has been pretty well established and I'm glad it has turned out to be a gem. I am curious about one thing, however. I was under the impression that Buffet used a curved pointed "flat" spring mounted on the C#/G# key for R13's during the period when your Academy was made. I have R13 Bb's from the same period on either side of your serial number (78xxx and 104xxx) as well as an A and Eb within that range. In all cases, they have the "flat" spring mounted on the key. Buffet may very well have used needle springs on earlier professional instruments. (I have an earlier Evette with a needle spring on the post. I don't know about their professional models.) Also, I know they eventually changed to the needle spring (by NLT 1981 and probably earlier) but if yours truly has a needle spring mounted on a post, that would, I think, be unusual.
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: GBK
Date: 2004-01-13 21:35
Jack is correct, as I believe the needle spring changeover (from the flat spring) on the C#/G# key happened around 110xxx.
My favorite Buffets of the ones I own are:
Buffet R-13 Bb 96xxx (1967) and a Buffet R-13 A 86xxx (1965) that both have their original flat springs on the C#/G#.
Both, by the way are amazing clarinets...GBK
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Author: Mark P. Jasuta
Date: 2004-01-13 21:38
javier garcia m,
Buffet lowered some of the LJ key work on their pro horns for ergonomic reasons. The cutouts under the lower pinky keys were to compensate for this. (Allow full travel of the key in its lowered position.)
Regards
Mark
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2004-01-13 22:50
Here we go again! The needle spring changeover!
Post Edited (2004-01-13 23:34)
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2004-01-13 23:08
Except on the LJ it's a C#/F# key. Actually, it'd be an F#/C# key since the C# is a twelfth above the F#. (Or is it a Db/Gb? Maybe a Db/Ex? hehehe)
Honest mistake though. Even though something didn't sound right it took me a few minutes to figure out what was wrong with the picture . . .
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
Post Edited (2004-01-13 23:22)
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2004-01-14 03:05
Hi Jack,
I just looked at the clarinet and there is a flat spring for the C#/G# key. Also, I just measured the bore of the UJ and top is .583 in and the bottom is .574 in so the R-13 relationship is even more solid. Aren't those numbers about what the R-13 UJ measures?
HRL
Post Edited (2004-01-14 11:21)
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2004-01-14 03:39
Hi Everyone,
I just answered my quesiton with a search and an old post which says "The more modern R13s should measure ~ 0.587" at the top and ~0.574" at the bottom of the upper joint (+ or - < 0.003")." My top measurment is a tad off but I'd blame this on "operator error" of just using a caliper spun around in the bore.
But as they say "close enough for jazz!"
HRL
Post Edited (2004-01-14 11:24)
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2004-01-14 04:21
Hank, I'm pretty sure Academy model with this serial number IS rejected R13. Actually this is the only one model that was rejected after the final inspection.
E&S MM is also a reject, but it was rejected earlier in the manufacturing process. Deferent keys, typical to Evettes/E&S are installed on these instruments and you don't find any hand finishing, bore polishing nor final tuning that is typical for an R13.
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Author: Tim F
Date: 2004-01-15 11:52
Mark,
Does your observation on cutouts under the LJ keywork of pro instrumments apply to other makers? My instruments are split 50-50 on this. The SML Marigaux (late 40s or early 50s) and GM Bundy (late 20s) have such cutouts while the Yamaha 34 and B&H Edgware (mid 50s) do not.
(Yeah, that's an odd assortment, but so it goes on the garage sale, flea market and antique mall circuit around here)
Just curious...
Post Edited (2004-01-15 16:07)
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Author: Mark P. Jasuta
Date: 2004-01-16 01:15
Tim F,
That's a tough one. I am leaning toward a yes on that because the ones I've seen were pro horns and that this would be a secondary boring operation that if done wrong could turn a perfectly good clarinet body into firewood. Basically too risky /expensive for a cheap /student clarinet.
But don't quote me; some manufacturers have done some strange things over the years. Buffet comes to mind.
Regards
Mark
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Author: jim S.
Date: 2004-09-18 03:11
Cutouts are not due to lowered lower joint ring keys in later R13's. My 1951 Buffet has lower ring key posts and deeper cutouts than my 1980's R13. Evidently all of their professional clarinets (at least post-1950 based on my evidence) have cutouts. The Evetts (and probably E&M's) have no cutouts only because they have moved the crow's foot out further toward the end of the keys.
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2004-09-18 04:24
Cutouts (under the right hand pinky keys) appear on ALL professional level Buffet clarinets as far as 1900. I've never seen any cutouts on any Evette clarinet and I don't really recall if E&S (older than 1955) had cutouts, but I think it did.
Until 1955 the keys on Pro Buffets and E&S horns had very similar shape and basically were interchangeable. Later all French made student level clarinets received Leblanc style banana key (on the LJ) and the crow's-foot was made from a single piece of alloy etc.
Vytas Krass
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
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Author: JamesE
Date: 2004-09-18 21:23
Vytas,
I have an E&S Master model from about 1953 I think, s/n K45xx. It does not have the cutouts but does have the C#/G# flat spring.
Jim
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Author: Denny G
Date: 2004-09-19 22:47
I have evidence proving Vytas' memory is exceptional. I own an E&S Master Model (about 1955) seriel no. 545XX. It has cut outs - and it plays like a dream, as well. In fact, I bought it from Hank!
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2004-09-19 23:30
I remember comparing my E&S from 1930 (serial #K176) to a Pro Buffet from that era and found them almost identical (slightly different undercutting). I'm positive it had the cutouts under the right hand pinky keys. I've sold the clarinet couple years ago and can't confirm it right now.
In general E&S and E&S MM do not have the cutouts. The ones that actually have them are rejected pro models.
Vytas Krass
Professional clarinet technician
Custom clarinet mouthpiece maker
Former professional clarinet player
Post Edited (2004-09-19 23:36)
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Author: nickma
Date: 2005-03-15 21:24
Hi guys
Just bought a Buffet Bb Academie serial number 54XXX. Is this from good or bad period? It was good value at less than 200 bucks. Neds a big poilsh and overhaul of course.
Nick
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2005-03-15 22:15
Hi Nick,
From a post above by GBK:
"To add to the confusion, Hans Moennig often spoke of the pre-R13 "bad bore" Academy model clarinets.
These were contained in the serial numbers 39000 - 41000."
So it looks like you got a good one although mine says Academy and is yours really Academie?
HRL
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Author: hartt
Date: 2005-03-16 02:16
Hank
I have a 1964 Buffet catalog. Within, an Academy model is pictured, described and retail priced. Offered din key of Bb, A, Eb
model No. R- 113 Bb...$350.
To fulfill the demand for a fine clarinet at a reasonable price, Buffet, maker of the world's finest clarinets, has created this medium priced instrument. The Academy has teh hand tuning, tonal balancing, easy responsiveness, and mechanical perfection that has made Buffet universally recognized as teh world's greatest and finest clarinet. It bears the famous BUFFET insignia and carries teh regular BUFFET guarantee.
Boehm system, 17 keys, 6 rings. The body is of teh finest Grenadilla wood. The drop forged keys are of nickel silver and identical to those used in teh Buffet Professional Clarinets.
Price inclused special Buffet case and accessories. (the case pictured looks like teh ones supplied with the ES various models)
Hank, does this help you ![[happy]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley12.gif)
regards
dennis
ps.......my dyslexia kicks in on teh word 'the' so pardon the typos
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2005-03-16 02:36
Hi Dennis,
Thanks for the extra information; that si always vaulable to have posted. I now pretty well have most of the answers I need.
BTW, please note that the thread began in October of 2003. I have since moved the Academy model to #2 behind a sensational Leblanc L200.
HRL
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Author: nickma
Date: 2005-09-07 19:49
More on the Buffet Academy Model recently acquired, serial # 54XXX (you were right Hank: it says Academy; not 'Academie' as described in the ebay listing).
Now overhauled. The keywork is possibly unplated, no wear whatsoever, no rubbing, and excellent wood, very tight grain, and glassy bore, tenons pretty sharp, rods tight, no wobbles. It plays well although some notes in the 3rd register are a little sharp, like many R13s.
The sound is exceptional. Very full and clarinetty, with excellent projection, and a ripping lower register. One of the very best R13s I have ever played, from any era.
Like Hank's Academy, my barrel has a hairline crack in it. It looks very old, and is airtight, so I am keeping it since the sound with it is wonderful. I wonder if one reason for an R13 to be marked 'down' to Academy would have been a crack like this? Seems coincidence than both of ours have a barrrel crack.
BTW, I have tried a Moennig barrel on this instrument, which being so early on in the production of polycylindrical R13s may have some key differences with later model in terms of tapers. I say this because as soon as I try playing with a Moennig barrel the sound becomes awful, intonation becomes erratic, and it's harder to play with delicate touches.
Admittedly this clarinet took me 13 hours to overhaul (the browning of the keywork meant that it needed time on the buffer machine, with both brass compound and jewellers rouge, rods needed straightening etc., and I didn't want to rush it) but I consider it something of a bargain at the acquisition price of $180. I may well keep it, though I still prefer my gorgeous Y series 10G for #1.
Nick
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2005-09-07 20:51
GBK,
I hereby challenge you to come up with lyrics to a song based on the old George Thoroughgood rock tune, the new version of which we shall title:
"Bad to the Bore"
The gauntlet has been laid down........I eagerly await your lyrics...........
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2005-09-07 21:13
And in response to DS's challenge, with a twist on an old clarinet wive's tale about master models . . .
"On the day it was machined . . .
the techs all gathered rou-ound . . .
And they gazed with wide wonder . . .
at the marks, they had found . . .
It looks a little scratched . . .
and the keys, a little wo-ore . . .
So they marked it 'Master Model' . . .
cause it was BAD TO THE BORE!!!"
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
Post Edited (2005-09-07 21:14)
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2005-09-07 21:16
Good job, Alexi! Even GBK, that master Poet, will be hard-pressed to improve upon your verse............
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Author: GBK
Date: 2005-09-07 21:22
Bad To The Bore
On the day it was made, the techs all gathered 'round
And they gazed in wide wonder, at the joy they had found
The head tech spoke up, and he said "save it, I implore"
He could tell right away, that it was bad to the bore
Bad to the bore
Bad to the bore
B-B-B-B-Bad to the bore
B-B-B-B-Bad
B-B-B-B-Bad
Bad to the bore
Bad to the Bore
You broke a thousand reeds, before you got this
Those days are now over, you'll just reminisce
You've got the right horn, it wasn't such a chore
I'm here to tell ya now, that it's bad to the bore
Bad to the bore
B-B-B-Bad
B-B-B-Bad
B-B-B-Bad
Bad to the bore
You'll make the rich players beg, you'll make a good player steal
You'll make musicians mad, and make the young kids squeal
Enjoy your new horn, it might just make you score
I'm here to tell ya now, that it's bad to the bore
B-B-B-B-Bad
B-B-B-B-Bad
B-B-B-B-Bad
Bad to the bore
...GBK
BTW - I didn't see Alexi's post until I finished mine. Interesting that we used some of the same ideas!
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2005-09-07 21:31
Bravo, GBK! An amazing instance of parallel development resulting in similar end results --- very much like the way Soviet and American military and commercial aircraft sometimes ended up looking very much like each other during the Cold War....
I'm sorry, did I digress? Darned Alzheimer's........
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