 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Henry
Date: 2003-10-12 17:32
Being rather new to the clarinet world, I'm getting confused by the multitude of kinds of pads and their associated designations? I have tried a search but the confusion is still there? I have seen references to cork and leather pads (no problem here) but also to "bladder pads", "double-skin bladder pads", "fishskin pads", "kid (or kit) pads", "synthetic pads" (Teflon, silicone rubber, goretex, microfiber?) and perhaps others. Could anyone give me a list of the most commonly used pads and enlighten me as to the materials used? For example, what is "bladder" and "fishskin"? Thanks for your help.
Henry
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2003-10-12 18:45
I've been doing a bit of pad research out of curiousity/interest, myself. If you read thru the "Hand Made Pads" thread below, you can pick up some names, Norbeck, Goretex, Valentino etc and, since I do patent searching for a hobby etc, I've found that there are many inventors of pad types, composition, installation procedures etc, whose names haven't been "attached" to the pads, tho many of these are sold by way of the discount supplier's catalogs, a good source of info in itself. If you wish to look this far, go to www.USPTO, databases, quick search, and use the above mfgr's names AND terms like clarinet, saxophone, woodwind INSTEAD of pad or sealing or closure which will bring up a lot of pat #s and titles you wont be interested in. I have been trying to compile some listings, but find that takes a lot of time/work. Luck, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Henry
Date: 2003-10-12 18:54
Thanks, Don! Perhaps someone can at least tell me what the terms "bladder" and "fishskin" mean in terms of the material. Again, thanks in advance!
Henry
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2003-10-12 19:53
In one [several?] of the patents, I recall there is a fine/lenghty description of the "prior art" [whats been done in the past] in pad mfgr. I'll see if I can re-find it [by US patent #] so you can read/copy as you wish. I'm really not sure that the thin-plastic-like felt pad covering was ever fish skin [may just look like it] but it was/is? animal membrane, stomach lining [?], and prob. now high quality-strength plastic film. Now I've told you more than what I may know, so I'll go hunt for help among quite a number of patents. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2003-10-12 20:39
Via a quick search-look, a more-recent pat, 6,344,604 Schmidt has a fine listing of earlier pats in Ref's cited, and descript under "background" and "prior art" sections. Likewise Valentino 4,453,444 and Norbeck 4,144,500 and Nelson 3,958,484. Happy reading! Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: BobD
Date: 2003-10-12 21:19
I'm thinking that "fishskin" refers to a thin membrane from some fish's bladder. It has been used in the past for more than clarinet pads.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2003-10-12 21:23
Ur rite as rein!, Bob D, thats what the pats said!! Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2003-10-12 21:35
Per the Straubinger patent, bladder skin is sometimes referred to as "fish skin" as well as "Goldbeater's skin" and is defined as a membrane made from animal intestines.
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Author: ron b
Date: 2003-10-12 21:55
[Trying to pull us back onto track]...
It's my understanding, Henry, that there are basically
four types of pads.
1.) Fish skin (not outer skin) is the same as (fish) bladder skin/membrane and has been the most common for decades.
-- Least expensive.
2.) Kid skin is the same as (ladies) thin gloves material - very thin (young) goat leather, mostly associated with saxes' and lower double reed instruments' pads - your choice of white or tan.
-- Moderately expensive.
3.) Cork; about as durable as it gets.
-- Fairly expensive.
4.) Synthetic - 'space age', plastic-like waterproof stuff - Gortex, , Norbeck... and others.
-- Expensive.
- r![[cool]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/cool.gif) n b -
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-10-13 00:46
Another common term for the thin membrane is "goldbeaters' skin". It was interleaved between thin sheets of gold, and the resulting pile then beaten in order to make the gold sheets very thin, i.e. "gold leaf", used for the gold embossing on leather, or traditional gold sign writing, etc.
I once researched the sources of goldbeaters' skin extensively on the internet, and the only source revealed was part of the lining membrane of the stomach of various grazing animals.
However about 35 years ago I bought the stuff from a New Zealand producer (not just suplier), who told me at the time that it was the flotation bladder material from a certain fish - I've forgotten which variety of fish. I don't know if this membrane is still sourced from fish as WELL as cattle but I could find no such fish source reference in my internet search.
However the membrane is much the same as sausage skin, is quite tough, approx 0.02 mm thick, translucent, and unlike thin leather - water/air proof. (Try sucking air through a non-'waterproof', 'treated' sax pad!)
The quality can vary widely, some types being very weak and 'brittle'. Some of the worst I have seen in recent years is sadly on new Buffet clarinets.
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Author: Mark Pinner
Date: 2003-10-13 13:38
Maybe the fish was a Maori Wrasse or a Mahi Mahi. Fish skin and leather is amazing stuff. On Arabic and Indian drums of various types they use a kind of fish leather for the head. It needs to be warmed, they use a floodlight globe, to sound properly. The gold beaters skin commonly used can be made from fish by products or grazing animal by products. There is also an artificial cellulose sausage skin type product available which is similar but makes aweful sausages. The different brands/ models of skin pads seem to have a variety of skin products used. The last lot I bought seem to be the artificial cellulose type and are not the best. They take longer to seat than the Prestini or MyPad and are hard right from the word go. Fortunately I didn't buy too many. Ron B makes the comment that kid skin pads are mostly associated with other instruments than clarinets. Yamaha use them on all models from the intermediates up to custom as do Selmer Paris, Hammerschmidt and most other european makers bar Amati. They are my personal preference. Cork pads are a matter of preference but they seem clunky and noisy to me but they are durable. The artificials are really hard to work with and the Valentinos are best as a quick fix type of pad. The main claim of Norbeck pads is that you can submerge them in water. I don't know why you would want to do that in the first place.
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Author: Henry
Date: 2003-10-14 15:04
Thanks to all for the valuable info. I have learned a lot. Let me try to distil all this. Let me know if there are any wrong conclusions.
1. Cork pads. Used mainly on some (or all) keys of the upper joint. My own horn has them on the register key, C#/G# key, and the lower trill key (Eb/Bb). Gordon(NZ) advocates that, for improved venting, the register key cork pad be in the shape of a truncated cone whose narrow end is just slightly larger than the tone hole (something to consider for my own horn!).
2. Leather (or "kid") pads, made of very fine leather, e.g., from goat skin. (Didn't I read somewhere that kangaroo skin is being used as well?)
3. "Fish skin" or "bladder" pads (same thing). Transparent. Made from the intestinal membrane of certain grazing animals or the flotation bladder of certain fish. These pads often (or always?) have two of these membranes ("double bladder pads") stretched directly over felt.
4. "Synthetic" pads that use a variety of synthetic polymeric membranes (e.g., Teflon, silicone rubber, "Goretex" and what not!). From discussions on this BB I conclude that the ideal material has not yet been found to everyone's satisfaction in terms of strength, elasticity, flexibility, water permeability, durability, or what have you. A challenge for the material scientist!
Henry
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2003-10-14 16:44
Very good summary, Henry. I recall that some 20-40 patent numbers were retreived by my recent searches, some like Dan's suggestion of Straubinger, have a comprehensive discussion of this " useful art". Search for inventor surnames AND woodwind [or clarinet,etc,] the term pad is too generic, "much false-drop", on USPTO. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Ed
Date: 2003-10-14 16:59
The Valentino is great pad, seals like crazy and lasts forever. I know a number of top repair guys who use them and I beleive Guy Chadash is using them on his hand made clarinets.
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Author: Henry
Date: 2003-10-14 17:17
Ed, I take your word for it. I have no personal experience with Valentino pads. I do seem to remember from this BB that not everyone shares your view but, then, it's impossible to please all!
Henry
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-10-14 21:56
Mark wrote:
<Maybe the fish was a Maori Wrasse or a Mahi Mahi.
I was told the name, and have forgotten it, but it was not that. It was a more common name.
This fish must be reasonably large, judging by the size of sheets of 'fish skin'.
Henry:
"2": Kangaroo sax pads have just started to be marketed by MusicMedic. Steve Goodson had a lot to do with this marketing project. Kangaroo hide is reputed to be extremely tough. Toughness is a significant issue for saxes, which have relatively sharp tone holes.
"2": The best sax pad covering probably available for clarinets also) I have yet encountered is an extremely-soft, totally-waterproof, 0.3 mm thick, easily glued, synthetic leather, bought from Music Center. They were/are considerably more expensive than standard leather covering. I used this material for linkage silencing where there is a rubbing action, e.g. between F/C lever and key, and under the regulating screw (throat A). It is possibly what is used as a quality leather substitute on upholstery.
"3". Single membrane is quite common. I have used this extensively, because I believe that a single, extra thicker membrane is probably more successful overall than a double layer of thinner membrane.
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Author: diz
Date: 2003-10-16 01:48
eeeiiikkk - our coat-of-arms used in saxophones manufacture - Christ, what next?
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-10-16 05:05
Kiwis? *ducks for cover!*
How about opossum skin. In NZ have about 60 million of them we want to get rid of.
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