 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Bradley
Date: 2003-10-13 01:29
Does anyone know what Leblanc currently uses in their keys on the "artist" models like the Concerto II and Opus II? i have heard of some keys being initially brass or copper and then coated with silver or nickel, but what metal is being "plated" in these particular keys? Is it layers of different metals?
I got curious about this because my friends basically all play Buffets and their silver plated keys tarnish with a pink type of tinge while mine ( I have a Concerto II) seems to tarnish a yellow shade when it actually does (my keys tarnish less than theirs I've come to notice).
Bradley
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Author: Mark Pinner
Date: 2003-10-13 14:19
Generally they are made of brass components soldered together with a hard solder, generally silver solder. The plating varies but generally the first plate is copper and then another plating of nickel, German silver, a sterling silver alloy or gold. Plating techniques are fairly sophisticated these days so this explanation is fairly basic and applies to better quality keywork. Direct nickel plating does happen on cheaper grade instruments. The outer plating viz a vis silver, nickel, German silver or gold is more for appearance or preference. Keywork has been make out of solid German silver and pot metal (aluminium alloy) over the years. These metals are plated also. In the case of a couple of examples I have seen the keys have been solid German silver, copper plated and then plated in nickel, German silver or sterling. The hardness of the keys depends both on the strength/ quality of the underlying material and the plating.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-10-13 15:03
Saxophone keys are almost always made from brass.
However to my knowledge from working on over 100 brands of clarinet, the only CLARINET keys I have encountered made from brass base metal have been very low quality ones from China.
The base metal is normally "nickel silver", "German Silver", cupro-nickel, etc, which are all names for variations on alloys based on copper and nickel, with no silver. Brass does not feature nickel, unless the term 'brass' is used in an unusual way, i.e. used so loosely that it includes most copper alloys.
The cupro-nickel alloys often have a yellow-tinged silver appearance.
I am not aware of German silver keys being actually PLATED with German silver. What would be the point?
Clarinet keys have traditionally been the "EPNS" that is stamped on many 'silver items'...... "Electro-plated Nickel-Silver".
Yes, a few keys have been made of pot metal, but I don't think it is an aluminium alloy.....
"pot metal - NOUN:
1. A copper and lead alloy, formerly used in making plumbing fixtures.
2. A cast iron used especially in making pots.
3. An inexpensive alloy of poor quality, usually containing lead, used especially in making castings: cheap jewellery made from plated pot metal......"
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2003-10-14 14:42
A few thots from recalling my electrochemical and electroplating courses at Mich State in the early 1940's. The use of direct current to produce chemical reaction, generally oxidations or reductions, such as batteries!!and to make PERoxides or to generate H2 and O2 from water, and to produce aluminum, is well known, there are of course many others. I believe, and will ascertain {Zumdahl,"Chemistry" text} that electroplating is accomplished by deposition of PURE elements, via their ionic form, mainly metals [Cu, Ni, Zn, Ag, Au, Al, Sn, Cr etc] onto electro-conductive substrates, metals and alloys. Prob. the most common is the 3 layer protective coating for steel of Cu, Ni, Cr, remember the OLD auto bumpers?? There is an electroless deposition process also. So, its doubtful that alloys are deposited except by "dip-coating", tho I may be going beyond my knowledge of "modern" chemistry! Read up!! Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2003-10-14 15:50
I sure did neglect mentioning another biggie, silver plating !! We still have some "table wear" which bears "EPNS", Electro Plated on Nickel Silver, [almost always with a Cu undercoat] . Some of my books have many N S compositions, usually Ni, Cu, Zinc [of which too much makes a "pot-metal" [N G !]. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2003-10-14 16:30
The copper undercoat is put on because it is soft and can be buffed to an incredible smoothness easily.
Nickel is then put on for hardness (since it goes on the smooth copper there's very little buffing/rework needed).
Next comes the silver; it's relatively soft, so the hard nickel layer helps prevent really noticeable wearthrough.
Chrome plating on the old car bumpers follows a very similar process. There are a few other reasons for the dissimilar metals (molecular "stickiness" is one) - the wrong material used in plating or some "poisons" in the electroplating solution can cause a weak bond between the metals, causing plating to peel.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2003-10-14 19:29
"molecular "stickiness" is one"......hmmm, wonder what that means.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2003-10-14 20:00
BobD wrote:
> "molecular "stickiness" is one"......hmmm, wonder what that
> means.
Properties involved in metallic bonding and lattice sharing ... which translates into how "sticky" two dissimilar metals are at the molecular level at normal temperatues & pressures.
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Author: Henry
Date: 2003-10-14 20:10
Bob: The atoms in a metal are arranged in a very regular "crystal lattice" in which neighboring atoms are separated by a particular distance. If a metal is to be plated with another metal, one would wish the crystal lattices of the two metals to be as close as possible for maximum attractive interaction. The more the lattices (atomic distances) differ, the weaker the adhesion. If the lattices are too different, one might want to pick a third metal for an intermediate plating, so that the mismatch is reduced. I believe that this is what Mark is referring to.
The "poisons" he mentions would be impurities in the plating solution that could strongly adsorb onto the surface of the metal to be plated, so that the second metal cannnot come in intimate contact with the first. One molecular layer of such "crap" could lead to a disastrous result.
I hope this helps.
Henry
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Author: BobD
Date: 2003-10-15 14:14
Back when I studied metallurgy there weren't any molecules in metals....only atoms. Perhaps things have changed since then or I wasn't listening closely enough.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2003-10-15 14:28
BobD wrote:
> Back when I studied metallurgy there weren't any molecules in
> metals....only atoms. Perhaps things have changed since then or
> I wasn't listening closely enough.
Perhaps they taught you that a molecule must be 2 or more atoms - the one atom definition of a molecule exists and is perfectly acceptable.
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Author: Henry
Date: 2003-10-15 14:55
Yes, Bob, a molecule can be single-atom entity. Even so, to avoid the possible confusion, I used the term "atoms" in my post. By the way, the close matching of the crystal lattices of two adhering materials is referred to as "epitaxy".
Henry
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2003-10-15 15:39
I also question the concept of crystal structure of electro-deposited metals, IF that is included in our "coming up to date" in this chemistry. Back when! I took electroplating I was also taking metallurgy, so I made up a copper plated steel "sample" for a photomicrograph inspection and there were no "crystals" of distinguishable size [as with steel samples]. Just wanted to throw a bit mor gasoline on this fire!!! Comments? Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2003-10-15 15:56
Don Berger wrote:
> I also question the concept of crystal structure of
> electro-deposited metals, IF that is included in our "coming up
> to date" in this chemistry.
It's going to get very complicated very fast (as even the plating methods used - cyanide, Rochelle, or high-efficiency make a difference) and way beyond what I know. I did a quick look in current research and found out a bit more on deformable lattices in soft plated metals (no crystalline structure reported in papers).
A bit too off topic at this point I think, other than problems in plating (problems in traditional plating normally result from improper base preparation, impure anodes, or impuries in the plating solution, since the methods are well-known and proven).
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Author: Henry
Date: 2003-10-15 17:52
Don Berger: With all due respect, the fact that you did not see evidence of crystals under a normal microscope does not mean much. The crystals can be of submicroscopic or even nano size. Only techniques such as electron microscopy or X-ray analysis would reveal the true structure and crystal size.
Henry
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2003-10-15 18:23
AH, Yes, I did find some interest, TRUE, I recognise the shortcomings of #1, my recollection, #2, magnification technology available at a "cow college" , early 1940's, tho I got A's in both courses for "research", which helped my job-search, pre-WW2. Wished I could have pursued it! Also, TKS, Mark, will read with interest. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Bradley
Date: 2003-10-17 03:02
Wow- thank you all...
I wasn't expecting such detailed responses, so thank you very much- and once I read all the posts (I have only scanned at the moment) I should learn a lot more about those metal things I press to make different sounds. My chemistry teacher would be pleased I am encountering all of this outside of her curriculum.
Bradley
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Author: diz
Date: 2003-10-17 03:57
Got to love boffins when they put their brainy caps on ...
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2003-10-18 15:02
Boffins, ?what, where? how, who?? Is this down-under English language? We all pity, and are proud of, the Brits for putting up with our "colonial" massacre of the greatest language [as well said in My Fair Lady] !! Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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