 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2003-10-12 18:14
A few days ago, I went out and bought a box of Vandoren Tradition #2 reeds. I had been playing on Rico Royals, but, because I had heard so much about the quality sound of the Vandoren, I thought I would give it a try even though I had read so many horror stories on this BB about how few reeds were actually playable in a box. I figured that since all of the nonplayable reports centered around stiffer reeds (#3 and higher), I somehow sensed that things might be different with a softer reed.
At the store, I clearly saw a very large display of Vandoren reeds...and nothing else. When I asked about the Rico Royals, the clerk proceeded to dig in the BOTTOM DRAWER of a storage chest and found a few boxes. I then asked him which ones were the most popular...the Rico Royals or the Vandoren's. Without hesitation, he said the Vandorens. Well, I figured, if they're the most popular, then, they must be better than the Rico Royals.
So I paid the $18.55 bill and went home to try them.
What a mistake!!!!
Only 1 (one) of the ten played...and it only played marginally at best!!!
Needless to say, I was completely disappointed.
Then, I started thinking: What if I were a true beginner?? For example, what if I were 14 yrs old, my mom just bought me a clarinet with a 5RV mpc and a box of "recommended" Vandoren soft reeds. I think that after I went through so many failures in trying to get a decent sound...I may very well have given up and went back to playing games on my computer.
IMO, the Vandoren Traditional may be an outstanding reed, but, it is not for the beginning student. They need something that works well right out of the box.
For me, this is how it is with Rico Royals. I can pick out any reed in the box, soak it in water for a few minutes, slap it on my mpc and...start playing with a full sound.
Perhaps the quality of the sound isn't as nice as the Vandoren, but, IMO, a new player needs success right at the start to keep him or her going. (They can always learn the fine art of reed balancing after they get a good start.)
(For sake of comparison, I tried the Vandoren's on 4 other mpcs besides my 2RV...all with the same result.)
What do you think? Did I, unfortunately, just buy a box of bad reeds?
Another question, what if I were the parent, struggling to get by, and just shelled out $18.55 to get one marginally playable reed for my kid?
As far as I am concerned, when somebody asks me which brand of reed their kids should start out on...I'm going to recommend the Rico Royal.
I appreciate your comments.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2003-10-12 18:32
Dan wrote:
> Then, I started thinking: What if I were a true beginner?? For
> example, what if I were 14 yrs old, my mom just bought me a
> clarinet with a 5RV mpc and a box of "recommended" Vandoren
> soft reeds.
Recommended by who?
The student's private teacher, if any? The band director? The music store? Here?
The private teacher and/or band director should know what "goes with" a 5RV and is right for a beginner. I know that my kids were told what to buy to start off with - a combination the band director knew would at least work reasonably well to start.
BTW - what Vandorens did you buy? The traditional, V12, or 56 Rue Lepic? They're all pretty different cuts ...
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Author: Henry
Date: 2003-10-12 18:36
I must second the motion that Rico Royals are quite reliable. I started with 2.5s (on a VD B45 mpc) and am now playing on 3.5s as my embouchure has strengthened. But then, what do I know? I only picked up the clarinet a year ago. I have only tried Rico Royals, Zonda's and regular Vandorens. To me, Rico Royals were the winners from this very limited sampling!
Henry
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2003-10-12 19:37
Hi Mark, thanks for your quick reply.
As for recommendations, I reflected upon the comments given by some on this BB and well the display and comments of the store clerk.
Since the Vandoren's (Traditonal) were the only ones on display with no others in sight, what is one to think? What is a parent to think when they walk into this store? Will they be informed enough to ask for another brand? (I don't know what the local band directors are recommending, but, I feel that their recommendations, if other than Vandoren, would have been part of the display at the store.)
As to a mpc/reed mismatch, that is why I tried the Traditional Vandoren on numerous other mpcs I had just to look for any improvement.
Post Edited (2003-10-12 19:39)
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Author: Dee
Date: 2003-10-12 19:46
A Vandoren 2 reed is too soft for a 5RV mouthpiece so there are apt to be problems. I would not recommend a mouthpiece and reed combination that is a mismatch like that or there are very apt to be problems getting any kind of sound out.
For the 5RV mouthpiece, Vandoren recommends a Vandoren 3 to 4 reed (or the equivalent, which is about a 3.5 to 4.5 in many other brands).
A beginner needs a mouthpiece that is more open than the 5RV so that they can use a softer reed effectively.
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2003-10-12 19:52
Thanks Dee for your comments.
Interestingly, I can use a Rico Royal #1.5 on my 2RV and it sounds wonderful. The sound is full and I can play with a solid response all the way up to A6 with no problems.
With the Vandorens, the tone was full of air as if the reed wasn't vibrating very well.
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Author: Mark P. Jasuta
Date: 2003-10-12 21:41
For a beginner I would recommend a more closed mouthpiece, as an open mouthpiece affords the player with more flexibility. Flexibility is the last thing a beginner needs. I have seen beginners with open mouthpieces play "chase the needle" with their tuners.
Regards
Mark
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2003-10-12 22:31
If the tone sounds airy, that is usually a sign that the reed is too hard for the player. I apparently interpret Vandoren's recommendations somewhat differently than Dee. I have always figured that they are a range in which an experienced player should be able to find a comfort zone -- reeds softer than the low end for a given mouthpiece will likely "buzz" in the lower register and have trouble supporting altissimo, reeds harder than the high end will be too stiff for most (but not all) players' comfort.
Beginners, however, don't have as strong an embouchure as experienced players, therefore they usually need a lighter setup to enable them to produce a pleasant tone without an aneurism. (And they don't have to worry about playing altissimo.) In this regard, it seems to me that giving them a more open mouthpiece rather defeats the purpose of giving them a softer reed. If they truly needed an open mouthpiece, I would expect the student mouthpieces produced by Hite, Fobes, Pyne, Ridenour, et al, to have open tips and short facings. But they don't. If you look at the mouthpiece facing charts in the Woodwind and Brasswind catalog, you will find that the Hite Premier has a tip opening of about 1.07 mm. The Ridenour Encore is even closer at 1.04. Per Clark Fobes' website, his Debut has a 1.00 tip opening. Pyne simply indicates a "medium" facing -- and I suspect that that's what most of the student mouthpiece makers shoot for. (In my experience, the Fobes Debut plays with medium resistance, the Hite Premier with a little less.) Coupled with a relatively light reed, e.g., a Rico Royal #2, these mouthpieces give a beginner adequately low resistance to start. As the student's embouchure develops, s/he typically progresses to harder reeds and, often, eventually to a more resistant mouthpiece (open tip and/or shorter facing).
Experienced players usually can trade off between facing and reed strength within their comfort zone. Beginners usually need a soft reed and low-resistance mouthpiece to be in their comfort zone, at least early on. The 5RV, which is similar if not identical to the 2RV, has a close tip (around 1.04 mm) with medium short facing. I think this translates to medium resistance and should be acceptable for beginners. (Given the M13's even closer tip (around 1.02 mm) and relatively long facing, I'm surprised it isn't recommended more for beginners.)
My daughter started on a Hite Premier and Rico Royal 2's. When she had been using Rico Royal 2.5's for awhile, I gave her a traditional Vandoren 2. She could hardly get a sound out. I thought it might be a "hard" 2 but when I played it, it felt to me almost identical to the RR 2.5 she was using. I mentioned this to her teacher -- a well-trained, experienced teacher of beginners. She said that my daughter just wasn't ready yet for professional reeds. I conclude that her embouchure was far more sensitive to differences in her setup than mine was. Perhaps this is generalizable to beginners and experienced players in general -- I don't know. In any case, if your hypothetical beginner's parent asked me, I would recommend Rico Royals over Vandorens, at least for the first couple of years.
Best regards,
jnk
Post Edited (2003-10-12 22:32)
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2003-10-12 23:03
Thanks Jack for your in-depth response.
When you mentioned that the Vandoren Traditional #2 felt similar to the Rico Royal #2.5, I decided to go to www.intlmusicalsuppliers.com website and take a glance at their reed comparison chart.
Sure enough, the Traditional #2 is just a hair under the RR 2.5.
Now I think I understand the problem. Reed strength #2 of various brands vary considerably as to their respective resitive qualities (per the graph).
I should have taken a look at the graph before I went reed shopping.
I agree with you that the smaller tip opening is probably better for the beginning student than larger openings. I have found this to be true from my own personal experience.
I have a question about the M13. Do you feel that the M13 has less playing resistance than the 2RV because of the longer facing? I know that the M13 would require a stiffer reed.
I appreciate your comments.
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Author: hans
Date: 2003-10-12 23:41
Dan,
You wrote: "Since the Vandoren's (Traditonal) were the only ones on display with no others in sight, what is one to think?"
Perhaps that the store makes a greater profit on the VanDoren Traditional reeds and therefore makes these the easiest to buy.
It might be possible to make more of the reeds playable by spending a little time on preparation. Some of these suggestions for improving reed service life and performance may be useful:
Burnishing: place the flat side on a piece of glass and rub the
vamp with a smooth rounded object from the thick end toward the
tip. If blowing into the heel end produces bubbles in the vamp,
the pores have not been closed and more burnishing is needed.
Wetting and massaging: soak the tip in water for 3 minutes,
then lay the reed on glass, flat side down. Then rub the vamp
for a minute or two toward the tip with a moistened digit. The
flat side should be rubbed also, but must be supported. After
massaging, use a rubber band to hold the reed on a piece of
glass for a day. Repeat the procedure for 3 or 4 days.
Breaking in: moisten, then play a new reed for only ten minutes
at a time before re-moistening it.
Hopefully at least some of the reeds can be made playable.
Good luck,
Hans
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Author: GBK
Date: 2003-10-13 00:47
In my mind there are three types of reeds.
The first type (ex: Rico, Rico Royal, Lavoz, etc...) are reeds that you basically use right out of the box (no prep needed, no time invested) until their useful lifespan is over. Most reeds will play fairly adequately and the cost is low enough to absorb a few horrendous ones which may find their way into each box. No fuss, no muss - put on a new one each time you play if necessary. Their cane is of the low to average quality and thus the gain by reed prep and adjustments are not worth the additional time invested.
The second type (ex: Gonzalez, Vandoren, Mozart, Zonda Select, Grand Concert Thick Blank, Glotin, etc...) are reeds which take fairly careful prep to reach their full potential. Playing them "to death" on the first few days does irrepairable harm. These reeds are meant for the long haul - invest the prep time and the rewards will be great.
The third type are the synthetic reeds, which I will leave out the discussion, for now.
For new players, the cane reeds of the first type are the ones to choose. Since the discussion above centers on Vandoren reeds, as we all know, Vandoren reeds can be very fussy (even for the pros). These would not be my first choice for beginners, unless the teacher is volunteering to first do the prep work on the reed for the student..
The early stages of clarinet playing are certainly difficult enough without adding reed problems to the mix. As a student begins to develop both embouchure and sound, the instructor should be more demanding and discriminatory on acceptable tone, thus gradually shift to reeds in the second category with good teacher guidance on break-in and prep methods...GBK
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2003-10-13 01:18
hans, thanks for your reply. I also thought of the "profit" motive...especially if a student is not adept at prepping reeds. I believe many of them will be considered unplayable and probably just thrown away.
GBK, thanks for your analysis on the class grouping of reeds. Hopefully your response as well as Jack Kissinger's will be used by new players who are wondering what reed to start out on and also by other players, who, for whatever personal reasons, would choose the characteristics of the first type over the second.
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Author: cujo
Date: 2003-10-13 01:39
HEY Mark C. I tried looking for the original article of this. Might clear things up for vandoren .please post a link to it. The original article is on this website somewhere, I remeber seeing it awhile back. but.. It mentions that Vandorens makes reeds in increments of 2.4 or 2.5 or 2.6 by tenths. So if you bought a box of 2.5 you would get a few 2.5s a few 2.4, 2.3,2.6,2.7. and so on. The article says vandoren does this because if you like 2.5 a little stiff or weak. buying a box of pure 2.5s and you like them stiff, they will all be bad. But if you buy a 2.5s with a mix of different sizes you will most likely like a few of them.... I never buy a box of anything. I dont mind paying a little more for singles, I always check through the light and most brands have quite a few in each box that are not up to my standards. I dont like wasting time cutting/sanding new reeds.
Post Edited (2003-10-13 01:45)
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2003-10-13 01:51
cujo wrote:
> It mentions that Vandorens makes
> reeds in increments of 2.4 or 2.5 or 2.6 by tenths. So if you
> bought a box of 2.5 you would get a few 2.5s a few 2.4,
> 2.3,2.6,2.7. and so on.
Not quite. It says they can "measure" up to .1 increments.
>http://www.woodwind.org/clarinet/Equipment/Reeds/Consistency.html>
> I always check
> through the light and most brands have quite a few in each box
> that are not up to my standards.
I and many other people have found that selecting by appearance isn't as useful as some think. As long as the fibers aren't sliced up in the wrong place, the reed is probably useful. My very best of all time reed was an ugly, miscut thing.
But ... YMMV
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Author: cujo
Date: 2003-10-13 02:06
I know appearance isnt very useful but many times a reed has unequal side as in one side is real fat and the other skinny. I hate that feeling that the reed is bigger on one side than the other in my mouth.
My best reed i remeber had uneven fibers and color. I dont pick out the ones with a perfect heart, tip or fiber but just evenly cut.
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Author: ClaRiNeT_CaNdY
Date: 2003-10-13 02:50
well.. i usually don't buy reeds in a box... i buy them individually (you'll be able to see the quality).. if u buy dem in a box.. its luck.. and most likely u're going to have unplayable reeds. Anyway.. who uses #2 reedS? #2 reeds aRe way too thin.. perhaps you should trY #3 or #3 1/2.. vandoren reeds are much better than rico royal (in my perspective) and perhaps u should give vandoren another chance.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2003-10-13 02:57
ClaRiNeT_CaNdY said:
> Anyway.. who uses #2 reedS? #2 reeds aRe way too thin..
I guess no one ever bothered to tell Benny Goodman ![[wink]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie3.gif) ...GBK
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2003-10-13 04:03
Dan,
Based on the Vandoren chart, it appears to me that the M13 should be Vandoren's least resistant mouthpiece -- assuming all their "long" facings are of equal length. However, I note that their range for the M15 actually suggests slightly harder reeds. Perhaps there is a difference in the chamber or baffle though I seem to remember reading somewhere (probably on this board) that the only difference between Vandoren mouthpieces was their facing. On this last point, however, my memory may be faulty.
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2003-10-13 07:04
#2 is fine for swing, and for people with excellent control (hence Benny)
Otherwise, I'd encourage to eventually work up to at least a 2.5-3, though it's always entirely dependant on the person and the setup.
At local music stores (aka drum, guitar, keyboard and "other stuff" stores), I sometimes even get odd looks when asking for V12s... the "wow, nobody every buys those, I wonder what drawer they're in" look. Not to mention blank stares at the mention of Gonzalez.
A 1.5, Dan? Yikes! I keep one around for practical jokes though. I find it's easy to confuse "loud" tone with "good" tone.
After all these years, I'm finally starting to use a decent reed break-in process, and it's significantly increased the usability of reeds. It's a bit of a shame that nobody tells you about that earlier. I remember when I first started playing, the mentality was "honk on the reed for a few days as hard as you can, then it will be ready to play."
I also find it dangerous to come to a conclusion about a line of reeds from one box on one setup, though with my first box I'm thus far quite happy with the Rue Lepics (despite the fact that the 3.5's are a bit soft).
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: moose6589
Date: 2003-10-13 09:31
I keep hearing how the M13 and the M15 are less resistant because they are more closed? I simply don't believe this is always true. For some, it may be, but for the few M13's and M15's that I've tried, they've always been more resistant than other mouthpieces. I'm not sure about this, but I believe there are other forces at work(the inner dimensions of the mouthpiece and such) than just the facing of the mouthpiece in determining resistance. However, I don't believe that a beginner should deal with mouthpieces until a bit later unless the mouthpiece is horribly mutated or something. It might be a bit overwhelming, perhaps, to ask them to buy 10 things at once?
And yes, a beginner should never use a Vandoren, Gonzalez, or any other similarly priced reed. There's simply no point! Ricos have a shorter playing life, but I'm sure that the reed will be horribly chipped by the student before its playing life is over, so my opinion for beginners is that cheap is better.
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Author: Gerald-Wiley
Date: 2003-10-13 10:36
I do not believe that there are as many "unplayable" reeds as people claim. I have been using Vandoren reeds of varying strengths professionally for over forty years and reckon to have discarded only about a dozen as unplayable in that time. The only preparation I find necassary is to dampen the reed in my mouth while I assemble my instrument, attach it to the mouthpiece and play it. If it is recalcitrant I keep playing it until it does what I want it to do. Good Heavans! It's only a reed. Don't be defeated by a piece of over-priced wood.
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2003-10-13 17:02
EEBaum said:
A 1.5, Dan? Yikes! I keep one around for practical jokes though. I find it's easy to confuse "loud" tone with "good" tone.
I'm a casual player. I play simply for self-enjoyment. Sometimes that's only once a week...it varies. I like the quality of my tone. And that is all that matters.
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Author: OboeAtHeart
Date: 2003-10-14 00:07
I've always hated Vandoren reeds. I've tried them quite a bit, and I've found even with the right thickness and whatnot, they always tend to gain a nasty edge with a very bright tone onto them. It may be just me, but I've found Vandorens to be either badly cut or just stuffy.
I usually play on Mitchell Lurie 4s, which tend to wear out quickly, but I haven't found anything better. La Voz-es annoy me; they're buzzy. Rico reeds are from the devil. My first read was a Rico 1 1/2, which the band director who went to my netgroup destroyed and gave me a Mitchel Lurie 3.
Despite the entire rage about reed strengths, it really isn't important what size the reed is as long as you get a good, solid sound out of it. I play on 4s because they're comfortable and I overblow anything else. (That's the Bari-Sax's fault.) I have a friend who uses 3s and gets a better tone than I do. *shrug* It's just basically what you like playing on.
Some people like Vandorens, some don't. I'm still in High School though, but most of the professionals around here that I've talked to like them. Strange.
-Jenne.
*~"The clarinet, though appropriate to the expression of the most poetic ideas and sentiments, is really an epic instrument- the voice of heroic love."~*
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Author: CharmOne
Date: 2003-10-14 01:44
To ClaRiNeT_CaNdY:
"I buy them individually (you'll be able to see the quality).. if u buy dem in a box.. its luck.. and most likely u're going to have unplayable reeds."
I too buy reeds individual. ![[toast]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley15.gif)
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Author: tenorchick
Date: 2003-10-14 03:16
Hey, i'm new to these boards...
Anyways, i would just like to say that i disagree (respectfully) with those of you who say Vandoren is not a good beginning reed. When i started playing at the end of 4th grade, (I'm now starting my sophomore year in high school) i began using Vandoren 2.5's right away. After i bought a decent mouthpiece about 8 months later i bumped down to 2's, and am currently playing on size 3's. I toyed with Mitchell Lurie's for a little while, but went back to Vandorens
I have found that not every reed in the box is always reliable, but after five and a half years of it, i've grown used to it. Vandorens give me the best sound possible, and thats really all that matters when finding reeds for yourself.
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Author: kuteclar
Date: 2007-07-15 18:49
So is it safe to say that La Voz and Rico Royals are similar in quality for the beginning player?
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Author: joeyscl
Date: 2007-07-15 18:58
I used to always use Vandoren.... since EVERYONE used them (well, thats an exageration... but close enough) But im starting to use Ricos more and more...
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Author: kuteclar
Date: 2007-07-15 19:07
I have been using Vandorens since I can remember, also, but I am teaching quite a few young players (1 to 2 years). They all need a slight increase in reed strength - they were all started in public schools using La Vov MS. I have read that Vandorens require too much breaking in for a young player (which I understand and agree). So, does anyone have experience with La Voz, Rico Royal, Mitchell Lurie Premium....and maybe a few more reeds good for beginners I have left out.
I am considering price as an issue....but I am looking for a "quality beginner reed."
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2007-07-15 21:07
Kuteclar short brake in time is a sign that the cane quality isn't very good. Reeds that need 4 days to brake in are much better quality. When I play Gonzalez I need about week to brake them in because the quality of the cane is very good but unfortunatly they are way to consistant so I would need two strengths to mach different playing situations like home(normal),musicschool(softer) and band rehersal(stiffer). My experience with Rico Reverse is that they take more than a week to brake in but then still are too fluffy for sensitiv playing and Rico Evolution die very quikly. I would say that from Xilema,Gonzalez,Zonda,Vandoren,Glotin and Alexander Superial Ricos are way far worst.
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Author: kuteclar
Date: 2007-07-15 21:16
But again - I am looking for students ages 10-13.
I was part of the Rico Reserve trial - the reeds they ended up choosing, I considered fair.
I have found that the Rico Select and Evolutions play out of the box but die fairly quickly, regardless of any break-in routine I've tried.
I am looking for basic, easy student reeds so the students don't fight with breaking them in for days. I and you know that once you break them in, they last longer and sound better, but a young new student wants to just be able to play - lacking some tone quality....which they only can play up to A anyway, and that is squeaky.
The Ricos I am asking about are Rico Royal. Nothing fancy. Any ideas about these reeds?
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Author: Iceland clarinet
Date: 2007-07-15 21:49
When I was young Mitchell Lurie orginal and premium were best for me(at the time Vandoren classic were to fluffy and difficult for me to play)but after I think about 3 years(when I was 13) Vandoren classic did the trick for me for about 2 years and then I switched to V-12.
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Author: J. J.
Date: 2007-07-15 22:23
People, these are small pieces of cane. A student can play anything if you tell them they can.
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Author: Bassie
Date: 2007-07-16 09:44
Some thoughts.
Vandoren are very different to Rico Royal. Personally I prefer the Vandoren but I have played both on occasion. The Ricos sound a bit cardboardy to my ear; I prefer the brighter Vandoren sound. A player coming to Vandoren from Rico, I imagine, would find the Vandoren 'thin' sounding at first. And also hard: they are indeed half a strength harder for the same number reed.
As a beginner I played both. As an improver I played Vandoren 2.5 on a 5RV for quite a few years. It's a fine combination.
The problem with Vandoren and beginners, I think, is getting the right strength reed. Most beginners in my experience are tempted into half a strength (or more) too hard. I did it and most of my friends did it. Then I switched to Rico and thought 'what a relief!' - until I finally realised what was going on. My considered opinion is that there's nothing wrong with starting on a soft Vandoren. They may be finnicky but they build character.
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Author: JJAlbrecht
Date: 2007-07-16 14:03
The Mitchell Lurrie reeds (Standard and Premium) work very well with beginning or early students. They tend to run a touch soft, so buy reeds 1/2 grade harder than other companies' products.
Jeff
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Author: DavidBlumberg
Date: 2007-07-16 14:41
disclaimer:
I'm an Artist for the Grand Concert Reed.
I really don't like the regular box Vandoren reeds as there really are many unplayable reeds in a box. For a starting player without a teacher that can be a disaster as the student hits a bad reed (terribly unbalanced) and figures that he can just switch the reed and another one will play fine. After trying a few bad reeds the student now assumes that it is him, not the reed and gets discouraged. Of course a teacher can fix the reed, and dispell the discouragement, but without the teacher I could see a student quitting the instrument figuring that it's "just not for him".
I've found most other of the high level reeds aren't nearly as unplayable the regular Vandoren. That includes their Rue 56, V-12, and other premium reeds such as the Grand Concert, and Gonzales.
A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing......
http://www.SkypeClarinetLessons.com
Post Edited (2007-07-16 14:42)
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Author: Michelle
Date: 2007-07-16 19:02
I have always found Rico Royals to be very user-friendly and playable out of the box. I used them while learning, and honestly I still keep a box of Rico Royals for each instrument handy, because you never know when you'll need an "instant player". I have even grabbed one right before a concert and played right through with no mishaps, although that isn't recommended for a beginner
Yes, Rico Royals are thinner and may wear out quicker, but I'll often get a month or two out of them before I move on. I have used them on a great variety of mouthpieces.
By the way, regular Ricos have no place for me. I don't care for them at all.
Michelle
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