 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2003-10-09 15:04
Conn-Selmer is laying off workers and closing an Elkhart plant. http://www.wndu.com/news/102003/news_22081.php
They just couldn't compete with instruments selling for $100-$200.
These are of course the student and step-up US Selmers, and not the Paris models, but you can't stay in business jsut selling pro-line instruments.
A sad, sad day, especially for students and teachers, who are left with the Chinese Clarinet-Shaped Objects.
Ken Shaw
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2003-10-09 16:28
Ken writes:
"you can't stay in business jsut selling pro-line instruments."
Why not? Quite apart from the point that Selmer (Paris) is a totally separate company from Selmer US, it seems to me that the likes of Howarth, Eaton and Rossi are staying in business doing just that.
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If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
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Author: hans
Date: 2003-10-09 16:43
David,
There are always exceptions, but market share is generally believed to correlate highly with long term business survival.
Best wishes,
Hans
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2003-10-09 16:47
Thanks for the timely news Ken (I am sad too!). IMHO --- Many old line manufacturers in various areas are facing the new reality of global competition and they must "change" or suffer economic death. Student clarinets seem to be the last to receive innovation and efficiency in production. Granted, most of the current crop of Asian Rim horns have deficiencies, but the old line student horns have changed little in 20 years (with few exceptions) and "could" be produced at a lower cost and similar quality in other areas of the world or from parts produced elsewhere.
With the corporate experience and R & D that we have seen in newer professional level horns from the "Big 4" they could revamp the student horn series and produce a better instrument. Lessons in point are the American automobile manufacturers that had to change, and now every car on the road is an international collaboration of parts. I am not sure that they are winning but are presenting strong competition in quality and cost.
These are indeed turbulent times for instrument manufacturers but cost, quality, durability, "fix-ability", and performance will be the ultimate arbiter of success - but not just cost.
The Doctor
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Author: ken
Date: 2003-10-09 17:23
This situation (among other pillar woodwind makers) is starting to remind me of the bitter wake-up call the "Big 3" U.S. car makers got in the 80s when they were forced to produce and manufacture higher quality vehicles or hit the road (literally). v/r Ken
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2003-10-09 17:27
What an interesting Bulletin Board! Coming here to discuss Clarinets, we find everything from descriptions of the inner workings of nuclear weaponry (pretty good, too... but a cherry bomb wouldn't quite do the job) to in-depth economics.
Unfortunately, trying to compete with Chinese manufacturers is extremely difficult, because China is a country in which the average annual wage is $700. This means VERY low labor costs for a single instrument. Terrible to say, Clarinet builders there seem to have elected to couple low labor costs with absurdly awful piece parts (CAST keys? Yucch!), seeking to achieve low total cost to the detriment of almost everything else. Hence they deliver cheap unreliability by the container load.
When someone wises up and uses superior materials and manufacturing processes along with that low-cost labor, then we may find ourselves praising Chinese Clarinets here instead of condemning them.
The Ingraham company in the US was known many years ago for offering their famous dollar watch. They had plenty of market share, but they are no longer around. Today, Chinese suppliers make millions of electronic timepieces that would almost qualify as chronometers; I bought a pair recently for less than a dollar. On the other hand, Rolex and Omega, for example, never having tried to capture the mass timepiece market, are still quite viable companies, still producing mechanical watches. But those companies don't really sell watches... they sell *reliability*.
Can you imagine a truly acceptable student Clainet for fifty dollars? It's not at all impossible.
Regards,
John
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Author: Ed
Date: 2003-10-09 18:15
"... U.S. car makers got in the 80s when they were forced to produce and manufacture higher quality vehicles or hit the road (literally)"
Of course, in this case, a big issue is that the competing instruments are not of even passable quality.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2003-10-09 21:07
John -
I don't think Rolex and Omega sell reliability. They sell jewelry and prestige.
Of course, their watches are accurate and reliable, even if their mechanical actions don't come near the accuracy or reliability of the $2.00 Chinese quartz crystal watch I carry, but that's hardly the point.
If GPS didn't exist and I needed a naval chronometer to find my longitude, believe me I'd have a quartz mechanism rather than a mechanical one.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: diz
Date: 2003-10-09 22:20
I agree with David Pecham on this one and I'm sure the wonderful Stephen Fox in Ontario has a healthy business selling only professional instruments.
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Author: KENOLD
Date: 2003-10-09 23:08
US car makers did not terminate production and were forced to improve their quality. The average quality of entry-level clarinets just dropped. If a car does not function properly, it's immediately obvious that the car is at fault. If a clarinet is not functioning properly, it is often blamed on the operator.
In addition to being "clarinet shaped objects", these can also be thought of as "clarinet aversion therapy devices".
What a sad day for music.
Ken
Learn to perform even the things you don't like, as if you love to do them.
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2003-10-09 23:18
Ken: Rolex, I'd have to agree: Jewelry and Prestige are big with them. But Omega? Much of it's institutional emphasis, of course (wow, is our stuff great), but product reliability is their big marketing push.
And if GPS didn't exist, I'd hope to sail the Pacific with an old native Polynesian navigator on board. Somehow they did it, and their mainsprings or batteries didn't conk out so easily. 
But the point is that changing paradigms can play hob with any producer, and those not prepared to make big moves in response may die. Regarding electronic wristwatches, for example, the Swiss invented them, but a head-in-the-sand attitude left that marketplace open for the Japanese. Now the Chinese have most of it. Maybe with Clarinets, too, someday? Stay tuned.
Nobody mentioned Patricola, so I will.
And could someone please explain to me me why Lyons does not make a Bb Clarinet?
Regards,
John
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Author: Mark Pinner
Date: 2003-10-10 00:16
Yamaha is manufacturing its 250 model for the Southern Hemisphere in Indonesia. For Mark Charette's information it is printed on the box although the instrument is still proudly emblazoned "Japan", deceptive to the average consumer who is generally given the horn without the box. This has led to a new discounting war here in Australia with these horns being sold for under AU$600, usually AU$595. The recommended, and totally fictional, retail price is somewhere around the AU$1000 mark. Likewise with the comparable model of flute. They are also selling the 275 model saxophones which are also Indonesian manufactured.
The 275 clarinet is appalling. The crows foot mechanism is like butter and is impossible to keep in adjustment for very long leading to students playing a 2 fingered version of E/B out of necessity. The springs are abyssmal, it is nearly impossible to retain an acceptable level of tension in the Ab/Eb and F/C springs after re-assembly. The pads are of dubious quality and are held in with hot melt glue making adjustment and re-seating difficult. The comparable flute is just as bad. Non level pads are common requiring re-shimming in a lot of cases. The adjusting screw threads, diameters are all over the place. The thread generally only holds becuase of the lock-tite/wax put in for shipping. Once genuine adjustments are attempted the screws do not hold. The 275 saxophones are another story. The tenors are just about unplayable. The tone is stuffy, the middle D is so sharp it is ridiculous, the palm keys, apart from opening way too far, do not play at all in tune. The altos do not readily play below D owing to pathetic C sharp retention making the C and lower unstable. Clamping the C sharp shut reveals that the B and Bb are heading towards a quarter tone sharp. The octave mechanism and G changeover are unreliable to say the least. The real disaster for these horns will start to occur soon when after less than 5 years of use they will be unplayable and near on unfixable. Some of the pads I have removed from these saxohpones reveal the use of a urethane based glue instead of the traditional shellac causing pad seating problems.
This is, as with the decision by the American companies, to manufacture in cheap labout markets, although according to World Trade Organisation rules it is not proper to ask about the conditions or salary of the workers producing the goods or even the quality, is a true victory of the bean counters over common sense. The Nike phenomena. I already cop a certain amount of abuse because I refuse to repair Chinese instruments and some Taiwanese. These are generally the horns that retail for AU$395 (clarinet&flute) and saxophones (alto) that retail for as low as AU$895. The retailers need to stop selling them, repairers need to stop attempting repairs, teachers need to stop recommending them and let the caveat emptor principle take its course. You have to wonder about the intellect of the consumer thinking that an object with as many moving parts as a woodwind instrument can be manufactured at the such a low cost and then wondering why they don't work. The trend will hopefully be reversed if market forces do truly take their course. The sale and manufacture of products that don't work will surely eventually bankrupt the charlatans involved!
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2003-10-10 00:27
Mark Pinner wrote:
> Mark Charette's information it is
> printed on the box although the instrument is still proudly
> emblazoned "Japan", deceptive to the average consumer who is
> generally given the horn without the box.
Please. It's for general edification, not merely my own. Cut the sarcasm.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-10-10 03:41
Interesting comments.
I look forward to seeing more of the new Yamaha student models in NZ.
I assume they are sourced the same as the Australian ones.
An aside:
Ever taken a Bic lighter apart. There are dozens of parts, ov many materials, and many of them of high precision - higher precision than most clarinet parts. Price - next to nothing. Where are they made?
Ever dismantled a a video recorder, cassette recorder, or computer printer.
They contain a lot of high precision mechanical gadgetry. Cheap! Where made?
I think the top quality, polymer-bodied, more reliable than we are use to, excellent-toned, professional clarinet for a few hundred dollars is a definite possibility, and not too far away.
It will happen when non-Japanese countries get into serious competition wiht Japan. Western manufacturers will be left wondering what happened.
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Author: ned
Date: 2003-10-10 04:29
" The retailers need to stop selling them"
Mark Pinner - of course the retailers won't stop selling them any more than any other person in the business of selling - clarinets or books or soap or cars or insurance......etc... ad nauseum. If the buyer thinks he's getting a good deal [and price is their principal buying criterion] then there will always be a market for cheap and shoddy goods.
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Author: pzaur
Date: 2003-10-10 05:23
Interesting little tibdit - I was at a small seminar at a local music store with a Selmer rep. He said that Selmer is looking to move their production facilities for entry level instruments to China and the surrounding areas. Main reason being that Selmer can't compete in the entry level instrument arena. He also stated that the problem with the Chinese instruments wasn't execution of production, but what they were basing their instruments off of. Many of the instruments coming from that area are merely visual copies of another. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if Selmer does open a few factories in the Far East for production of entry level instruments.
I'm not condoning what Selmer may or may not do, but if they can control the quality of the instruments coming from China and such, then why not. It makes good business sense. Only if they can control the quality.
Then again, Selmer already has quality control issues at their French factories. Polishing compound being left on instruments, key alignments on their pro horns, polish dust in the second octave key (saxes) to name a few problems. The Rep even admited that there were control issues at the factory. He also said that steps to rectify the situation were in motion.
pat
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-10-10 09:24
Powell flutes have a model where there is a top USA head on a Chinese or Taiwanese body - take your pick.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2003-10-10 13:50
Re: pzaur's tale about Selmer in China --- Selmer USA is already there, viz: About a year and a half ago I purchased a new Buescher BU-6 bari sax --- this is a Taiwanese-made instrument marketed by Selmer USA under the old Buescher brand name, along with corresponding soprano, alto, and tenor saxes and clarinets. I don't believe there was any issue with the 'role model' from which my bari was copied -- it was visually nearly identical to a French Selmer Super Action 80 externally. I tried it at a music store, it played well, I bought it. At the very first big band rehearsal playing the Buescher, the solder joint on the neck tenon popped --- too little solder had been applied and there wasn't even enough surface area available to make a good solder joint -- poor design/poor process control. I ended up redoing the joint with epoxy and pop rivets! Two weeks later, the solder joint at the neck-to-body brace popped off -- same manufacturing flaw. Meanwhile, the keywork is so soft that everything is bending during normal playing --- I had to make cork/felt 'bump stops' to put under most of the keys to limit their travel. The horn was so fragile I was afraid to take it on any gigs, so I sold it after just three months --- good riddance!
It wasn't that they copied the wrong instrument --- the problems were all related to poor metallurgy and poor manufacturing processes. Caveat emptor.........I now play a late-50's vintage Conn 12M bari that not only plays rings around the BU-6 (other than not having a low A, big deal...) but the Conn is well made and rugged and has not had anything break or even go out of adjustment in the 6 months I've been playing it. And by the way, it cost me (on eBay) one-fourth of what I paid for the new Buescher.
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