 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: bp (F)
Date: 2003-10-02 16:36
When I was a child and learning to play with a B45 (teacher said : buy a B45), I felt quite often uneasy with that mouthpiece. The muscles of the jaw were suffering a lot with the consequences that you can imagine.
Many years ago, after having done good and bad experiences with some B45, I bought a M15 and I liked it very much because of the very colorfull sound. But that MP doesn't allow to play loud and large enough, especially when you play in a clarinet choir.
So I tried many MP, 5RVLyre and M30 for a few weeks but not very convincing (for me...). I am know playing a B40 that gives me at a same time, a very comfortable feeling, a good volume, no tiring playing for hours.
But I am not completely convinced with the sound which is very reliable, always quite good, but not enough rich in hamonics and color.
Thus, I tried again B45 and even B45dot. The first minutes, it was very exciting, exactely the sound I am looking for, very rich with many harmonics. But the pain in the jaw muscles came very fast, clenching and the sound going worse...
B40 has the same opening but seems much easier to play.
Is anybody able to explain that problem?
What do you suggest?
Thank you
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2003-10-02 16:46
You didn't mention what strength reed you were using.
You might try using a softer reed and see how your jaw feels and how it affects the tone.
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Author: bp (F)
Date: 2003-10-02 16:49
According to Vandoren reed strength advices, if I play n°3 VD reeds with a B40, using them with a B45 should not be a problem. Don't you think?
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2003-10-02 17:06
Being a mass-produced mouthpiece, every B45 will play differently than the one next to it. Try a whole bunch of them if you can, until you find one that sounds good and feels comfortable.
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Author: Brenda
Date: 2003-10-02 17:35
I had the same problem with aching jaw, even mentioning it to my dentist. However after using double-lipping for a few minutes each day at the beginning of practice I began to realize that I'd been using the wrong embouchure muscles for all these years. If you've tried every mouthpiece conceivable then the jaw problem could be the embouchure. You could be relying on the bottom jaw to support the reed instead of strengthening the upper lip and cheek muscles to balance the support around the mouthpiece. This takes the strain off your jaw.
See my August 8 post under "Playing on soft reeds" for the reference to Keith Stein's book and the page numbers. It's worth taking some time to read these reference books.
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2003-10-02 17:59
I think I understand your reed strength reasoning.
I just had a look at the Vandoren website and it actually shows that you should be able to use a #3 comfortably. However, the recommended range for traditional Vandoren's starts out at #2.5 for the B45.
A fast check might be to simply drop down to #2.5. If it's still hurting your jaw, then it seems that David Spiegelthal's advice may hold true...you may simply have a more resistant mpc and will need to try some others. (However, I believe that if you let David have a look at it, I think he might be able to "true it" up to manuf specs for you. That might be more cost effective than buying another mpc.)
Let us know how it turns out, OK?
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Author: bp (F)
Date: 2003-10-02 18:26
Thank you all.
Dan, are you sure the problem is that a B45 tiring to play is too much resistant or not enough?
Because I have no soucy with the B40 which is known to be more resistant than a B45 (with same opening). By the way, I have chosen a B40 not really resistant among a bunch of them.
B40 is for me the best compromise but I am not very pleased with the sound.
B45 or B45dot is the MP I would like to play but I think my embouchure is not capable to use them.
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2003-10-02 19:07
IMO, if the B45 was even more resistant, you might not be able to play it at all.
Since it appears that with all of the other mpcs, your jaw is not experiencing any problems, then, it appears, that something is amiss with the B45 setup.
I used to play on a B45. Absolutely loved the tone. Why did I quit? Because I was using a Legere #2 which played great on other mpcs, but, when I put it on the B45, my cheek muscles tired out real fast. I gave up on the B45 because, at that time, I wasn't willing to give up on the Legere. According to IMS's reed strength chart, there are quite a few reeds that are softer than the Legere #2 and, I suspect, that if I had tried them, I might be playing the B45 right now. IMO, the B45 is a good mpc but tends to be rather resistant which makes me believe that using a softer reed would offset this characteristic. However, perhaps my B45 was out of spec and was more resistant because of this fact.
You might want to contact David Spiegelthal directly and find out what he would charge to simply check the specs on your B45. Your B45 may have problems with it's facing, table, chamber, etc.
I believe this is the best route for you because, from reading your post, your heart is set on the B45.
Why not give it a check-up??
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2003-10-02 19:19
Sorry bp, I didn't realize what your location was (France).
I'm sure there must be well established mpc repairpeople in your country and would highly recommend you contact one of them before trying out numerous other B45's which can be quite time consuming. (IMO)
Good luck.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2003-10-02 21:13
A while back, a number of us [whose judgement I consider very good] had a brief discussiom/conclusion to the effect that there were MUCH better VD mp's than the frequently-teacher-recommended B45. I prefer their 11.6 and 5RVL to the B45, and have other still better [for me] mps made by others. OK, Mark C?? Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: GBK
Date: 2003-10-02 21:25
Don Berger said
> A while back, a number of us [whose judgement I consider very good] had a brief >discussiom/conclusion to the effect that there were MUCH better VD mp's than the frequently->teacher-recommended B45
I remember being in on that discussion and stating that there are many mouthieces (from Vandoren as well as other makers) that I would recommend over the B45 - which I consider to have a facing not suited for beginning players. My pet peeve is band directors who have become "B45 brainwashed". - They desperately need to be instructed on clarinet mouthpieces which are more user friendly for students.
As Dave mentioned, perhaps you just happen to have gotten an exceptionally poor one. The variation on machine made mouthpieces can be quite significant...GBK
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2003-10-02 23:34
I've never used anything stronger than Vandoren 2 ½ on the B45. Try to find a reed that works with your mouthpiece. I think Vandoren B45 is an excellent mouthpiece but I also wouldn't recommend it for beginning players.
Vandoren mouthpieces are finished by hand. Facing is applied by machine.
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Author: cujo
Date: 2003-10-03 05:30
Just skip the BS and get a HS**. Or a HS* for very beginners.
(of course that is just my opinion)
Post Edited (2003-10-03 05:32)
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Author: diz
Date: 2003-10-03 06:54
GBK said "B45 brainwashed"
Is that kind of like being "Buffet brainwashed"??
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2003-10-03 13:55
TKS, GBK, I recall your comments and those of Dave S and others. Can you , [perhaps even I] find that thread, as it seemed to say them well. I really dont wish to help create severe displeasure and excessive testing/sales, but employing ?judicious? selection of several good mps for the differing playings most of us do, is where I am most of the time, whether on sop/alto/bass cls or alto/tenor/bari saxes. Have some long term favorites and a few newbies. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: CharmOne
Date: 2003-10-03 16:10
I just started to play B45 this year and yea it stings a bit, but I find it not to be a problem at the moment. I play a 3 vandoren and I guess for me it takes time to get used to it.
CharmOne
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2003-10-03 16:22
I have been playing orchestrally for about 20 years now, and can say the B40 is a more efficient mouthpiece in terms of tonal control and embouchure work...the B45 is more open in tone and therefore requires a type of embouchure control that is very refined. As for the B40 I have found that it has a more blended tonal shape and a superb response in all registers...
However, that being said, the B40 I feel really needs to be matched with a responsive reed that is not too stiff. Unfortunately, students and pros tend to go towards a harder set up...which is impossible on this mouthpiece because of the natural resistance which helps focus the tone an gives depth to the sound on this piece.
I also suspect because the B45 is much more mass produced it has a tendency to be passed over quicker in the quality control realm. I have also have seen students choose B45's that were far more open than the 1.19 mm designation...so I can certainly say in the past I have been uneasy as a teacher reccommending this facing to students.
As to tonal colour ...the B40 works very well with Rovner Dark ligatures and BG ligature. I find that the sound is very flexible, and very even through the entire compass up to double high C. Given ear tests to fellow students, the B40 scores much higher marks to the listeners I have tried it on over the B45.
That being said, I have also run into a few very nice individual B45's and these are truly superb. As of late, I find much of the B45's coming off the production line to be a bit harsh and lacking in the depth I think that is so much part of satisfiying playing.
The other element of the B40 which I like is that it much simplier to get a focused warm sound than the B45. However, you really have to find reeds that work well with the way you play and the way your instruments speak.
David Dow
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Author: bp (F)
Date: 2003-10-06 20:44
Thank you so much David and others.
My story and embouchure problem with B45 and a better compromise with B40 seems more clear now, especially with David last comments.
By the way, what do you mean with "B45 is more open in tone and therefore requires a type of embouchure control that is very refined"?
Another silly question :something I have to complain about with B40 is that, because it needs quite soft reeds (Vando n°3 blue box for me), I tend to play a bit low when I play loudly. Is it a problem of embouchure controlling or reeds not enough strong?
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Author: beejay
Date: 2003-10-06 21:32
You might get a better result on a B45 with No 3 Vandoren V12 reeds, which would be easier to play than the standard ones. If you are near Paris you can buy reeds directly from Vandoren (56 rue Lepic) to exactly the specification that is right for you. You could also take your mouthpiece and have them check the facing. Remember, also, they sell reeds in packs of two, so you could buy several of differetn strengths to find out which one suits you best. My teacher plays on a B45 and sounds superb.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2003-10-06 22:09
You have to find the combination of reed,lig, bbl, horn and mp that "works" for you. I don't recall you even saying what horn you were using today...compared to years ago.....
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2003-10-06 22:55
Dear bp F:
In reference to the above, the "open" term means the sound is wider and somewhat more spread or tends to spread, especially in the chalumeau of the B45. This is one of the design aspects of mouthpieces that give a mouthpiece its characteristics.
For some, this means more work and control, and for others the B40 may mean reforming certain playing habits.
No matter what, any design in a facing is a compromise and hopefully you allow your selection to guided by what feels and sounds best for you!
good luck!!
David Dow
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Author: Jim E.
Date: 2003-10-07 05:14
I play the B45 with #3 traditional Vandoren reeds, no pain and I like the sound.
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Author: CharmOne
Date: 2003-10-07 06:10
Aern't B 40's are meant to be expensive than B45? I had the chance to put my investment on a B40 this summer, but it was too much. So, I pick up a used B45 (good condition) for only $40.
CharmOne
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Author: bp (F)
Date: 2003-10-07 06:15
beejay wrote
"You might get a better result on a B45 with No 3 Vandoren V12 reeds"
V12 reeds are not the solution to every problem.
In France, almost everyone played them when they arrived, but now, things are changing and many of us have returned to traditionnal reeds.
More "timbre", better emission, almost the same result with lower cost...
David, I am afraid you could not understand my last "silly question" : I meant "playing tuned down" for "playing low" when playing FFF wih soft reeds on my B40. I need to control or stronger reeds than n°3?
My personal combination is RC, B40, lig VD Optimum, VD blue n°3.
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Author: beejay
Date: 2003-10-07 09:24
bp (f)
I agree with you about the traditional reeds. I've gone over to using Glotin No 3s for the simple reason that they are slightly rounder at the tip and fit better on the Charles Bay mouthpiece that I prefer. But I use VD No 3 on my B45 dot which I keep for orchestral work.
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2003-10-07 14:55
I studied in France with Deplus a bit, and with Dangain a great deal, and this was for a year and half. The B45 is quite popular here in North America, but is becoming far less prominent in Europe.
As for reeds, I would certainly consider trying a variety of sizes and brands in order to alleviate some of the troubles you have with consistency with finding a good size. A slightly harder reed is always a bit better, and I use 3 1/2 tradional on my B40 as well as V12 3 1/2's which I adjust. As to whether or not some of the reed trouble you have are related to embouchure this should be checked with a teacher.
This is only general advice, but make sure you prace long tones and work a good deal on even staccatto. many times a reed has to be played in a good deal to find where it settles.
I personally found the B40 to have a greater repetoire of tonal colours. I also started on the B45 but found some of the upper register to shrill....once in France while studying I heard good things about the B40 and had my professor help in selecting a few. I also have a B40 13 for gigs where I need to play a bit lower....
In a recent orchestra concert we did Tchaikovsky Piano Concerto No. 1 which has some really nasty bits in the finale, so fast that you wonder if any body can think this quickly, yet the B40 projected nicely which is not easy at a high volume level. We also did a work written for our orchestra, and can say that I had no trouble with good focused pianissimos which still projected well.....
As to reeds it is very important to match the reed to the facing. I also feel quality control on the B40 is better, and find the measurements I take of tip openings of this facing to be more consistent.
Several fine players use these, Cohler, Carbonare, Boeykens in Belgium and solist Martin Frost use B40s. As to the B45 I think the B45 Lyre is more logical in terms of sound emission for those who want projection and control but also having the feel of the B45.
David Dow
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Author: bp (F)
Date: 2003-10-07 16:09
David, you wrote :
"However, that being said, the B40 I feel really needs to be matched with a responsive reed that is not too stiff. Unfortunately, students and pros tend to go towards a harder set up...which is impossible on this mouthpiece because of the natural resistance which helps focus the tone an gives depth to the sound on this piece. "
and
"I use 3 1/2 tradional on my B40 as well as V12 3 1/2's which I adjust"
Reading your first comment above, I think that VD reed advices (2, 2 1/2 ,3) for B40 are sufficient. But 3 1/2 traditional seems really strong to me!
Do you know if all the famous people using B40 you've said, they are all using with 3 1/2 reeds?
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Author: sinkdraiN
Date: 2003-10-08 02:52
I play a B40 on a Leblanc LL. I cant decide on which reed i like best. I tend to lean towards the Blue box 3, 3.5 and V12 3.5. I do not adjust my reeds so I wonder if i should lean toward blue box 3. I love the B40s tone but the resistance is tough to deal with as a sax doubler. If my chops are out of shape i tend to play blue box 3 but as my chops get in shape i like the harder reed.
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2003-10-08 12:54
Boeykens on a B40 uses 3 3/12 Vandorens and Grand Concert Select Thicks blank 3 and 3 1/2s.
Carbonare uses on a B40 3 and 31/2 traditional and V12 Vandorens...
Philipe Cuper (Guest Solo Clarinet Berlin Phil) uses B40s with 3 and 3 1/2 Vandoren reeds Blue and Grey Boxes.
No secrets, these players all are open about what they play on and how they achieve their result...may work for some, not for others....
David Dow
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Author: davor
Date: 2004-03-14 22:31
The author of this discussion is (I pressume) from France. I am sure that there is a good possibility of trying and buying all the mouthpieces that are made in the world and put on the market in France . Every clarinettist is a different person, and it is not possible to judge things without knowing the person, seeing him and listening him or her playing. I suggest you to try as much mouthpieces you can in some reasonable period, i.e. mouthpieces from different manufacterers.
If the things do not work with Vandoren mouthpieces, try others. There are excellent mouthpieces that come from US such as Charles Bay and Otto Link.
For me discussion with this topic is insignificant, you should try to choose what is best for you, dissregarding whether B 45 is tiring or not.
It does not work for you, get rid of it!
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