 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: sömeone
Date: 2003-10-06 13:43
I've heard recently that the quality of selmers are dropping due to over production, is this true? My sax colleague was thinking of buying a new sax from the selmer line when his teacher told him to buy a yanagisawa instead.
Another clarinet junior from my school was also suggested to buy buffet rather than selmer.
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Author: Tim K
Date: 2003-10-06 14:32
There are some knowledgable people who say the quality of assembly of new Selmer saxes is doubious. One regular poster to this forum has detailed many shortcomings of new Selmer saxes on the Sax on the Web forum.I have not heard that about their clarinets. Yanigisawa is often considered to have the most precise production in new saxophones.
Post Edited (2003-10-06 21:47)
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Author: hans
Date: 2003-10-06 19:00
IMO, this type of rumor and anecdote is not worth passing on, no matter which manufacturer is the subject. Selmer has been in the clarinet manufacturing business for over 100 years, which speaks for itself.
If the newer Selmer clarinets and saxes are of poor quality, I hope that those who have bought one recently will share their experience.
Hans (owner of three Selmers and delighted with all of them)
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2003-10-06 19:26
Perhaps you may want to PLAY one of these clinkers and determine the quality of construction for yourself?
The top Selmer saxophones are gems (the Ref 36 or Ref 54, for example) are really well built. I'm also a fan of the Signature series of clarinets.
These instruments are expensive, but should provide a lifetime of satisfaction to the attentive player.
That being said, I buy second hand horns.
They're AMAZingly expensive, when new!
Contrast the top models to the intermediate or beginner models in ANY maker's lineup and you'll find that corners are cut to save costs...
*YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR*
********
Want a tremendous instrument at reasonable prices? Drop Dave Spiegelthal a line, he has some less well known instruments at fair costs.
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Author: Fred
Date: 2003-10-06 19:26
The comment about Selmer saxes is not that the saxes are no good. It is that they require a fairly extensive set-up before they are ready to play. Selmer apparently just "gets them close" before shipping them.
Yanagisawa and Yamaha are known for producing saxes that are more ready to play out of the box. This is not a big deal if you are buying from your local store, but this trend can be very important (and expensive) when buying off the internet.
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Author: bp (F)
Date: 2003-10-06 20:53
Selmer Paris have had a serious problem of wood cracking with their new clarinets models Odyssey and Artys.
They have changed recently the process and/or (don't know exactly because they don't want to explain...) their wood supplier. Anything seems now to go much better with their instruments.
In any case, they have replaced and will continue to do with every clarinet that presents a serious crack, maybe even after the guarantee is over.
I play Buffet but I can say that Selmer is not Buffet in their relations wxith musiciens. They make a lot of efforts to get their clients satisfied.
Go to seem them at "rue de la Fontaine au Roy" in Paris and you will be really pleased to meet people nice as them and fully available for tuning and keywork adjustments.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2003-10-06 21:17
bp (F) wrote:
>
> I play Buffet but I can say that Selmer is not Buffet in their
> relations wxith musiciens. They make a lot of efforts to get
> their clients satisfied.
Hopefully that will be true in the US someday; I've so far had the opposite problem (I play a Selmer, too ...)
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Author: Bradley
Date: 2003-10-06 21:19
Hans- while I agree with your first statement, I don't agree with the rest of your post since it seems to be too affected by your personal bias. Same goes for Syn Bot.
I too have heard the new Selmers are crap. Since more than one person has told me this based on their own experiences, since I haven't come across any new Selmers (or at least none that had the sort of problems being mentioned here) I'm not going to put too much weight on other people's opinions, and I don't think anyone considering a new Selmer should either. Experience it for yourself and then decide.
My own opinion is that none of the "low end professional" models manufactured by Selmer have really been any good. They are usually overpriced and for the money you could get a much better instrument from another manufacturer. If going Selmer, I would get the best they offer new, or even used before I ever think about one of the "lesser" models. In my experience however like I said you're better off getting a Buffet Vintage or Leblanc Concerto II rather than paying too much for a Signature or Recital, or paying the same and getting a crappy horn.
Bradley
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Author: Tim K
Date: 2003-10-06 22:04
I have not heard anyone call the new Selmer Paris saxophones "crap". As Fred says, they do have a reputation for needing set up, sometimes extensive, after they leave the factory. One of their large dealers, Saxofoonwinkle (saxshop.nl) discusses this on their web site. They can be a great sax, but are likely to need finishing by the dealer before delivery.
Hell hath no fury like a Selmer sax player who perceives a criticism of his beloved horn.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2003-10-06 22:17
Never thot of it like that, Tim K, BUT, I'm with you! I too am an OLD lover of Selmers, cl and sax! No experience with the newer ones,tho . Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Ed
Date: 2003-10-06 22:47
I have played some newer selmer clarinets and bass clars and found them to be very good.
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Author: hans
Date: 2003-10-06 23:32
Bradley,
Why don't you agree that "If the newer Selmer clarinets and saxes are of poor quality, I hope that those who have bought one recently will share their experience."? What is there to disagree with?
BTW, I don't have a bias. Selmer and Yamaha happen to be what the largest and best retailer in my area sells. If I were shopping for a replacement clarinet, I would cheerfully try LeBlanc or Buffet. I have owned a Yamaha but it did not meet my expectations and I put it on my "never again" list.
It doesn't make sense to me for Selmer to be criticized by someone who hasn't even tried one, or because someone's "teacher" has a bias.
Re your "for the money you could get a much better instrument from another manufacturer" comment..... if this were true, how did Selmer last 100+ years in the business?
Hans
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Author: cujo
Date: 2003-10-07 01:06
Selmer was bought out by another company a few years back and decided to keep the Selmer name for obvious reasons. The product may be very good as in materials and construction as those are decided by engineering experts. But much of the cost of producing an instrument is in assembly which just about anyone can do with training. So to cut major costs you can hire people that are willing to work cheaply. The exact same product is made just not assembled %100 perfect.
Probably where Selmer gets its bad name for quality is in testing. All instruments from any decent maker have them tested. People who test instruments test many a day and can easily overlook a small problem a professional musician can instantly catch. If they hired someone without an "ear" for finding slightly leaking pads by sound they can easily pass a few instruments that just need a minor adjustment.
The point is when you buy something new you dont want to fix it. If the problem was noticed in the factory it would have been fixed without any cost to the customer. I heard this same "rumor" about Selmer a few times in different places. They would not be having any trouble if they would make sure the instruments would work right from of the factory.
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Author: Tim K
Date: 2003-10-07 02:42
Don Berger, I have no Selmers, but I respect them. My clarinet is a Leblanc, my favorite tenor a 1936 Conn nekkid lady 10M, and my baritone is a Buescher Aristocrat. My only objection to old Selmers is that they're so expensive, and that I don't own one. My objection to new Selmer saxes is that the Reference models are so expensive, and I suspect I would prefer my old Conn.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2003-10-07 02:53
cujo wrote:
> Probably where Selmer gets its bad name for quality is in
> testing.
You know, I never knew Selmer had a :bad name". Until you told me. And I've been around the block a few times ....
> I heard this same
> "rumor" about Selmer a few times in different places.
I think your choice of word, "rumor", as a staement lacking any significance sice there's no "fact" behind it, is a proper choice of vocabulary.
> They
> would not be having any trouble if they would make sure the
> instruments would work right from of the factory.
Well, personally, I don't think they're having any trouble because of bad workmanship. Could you point out any fact that indicates this? Anecdotes don't count (my sister's husband's neice's favorite hairdresser's cousin says ...). I'll be willing to accept fact, not rumor.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-10-07 04:08
A reference was earlier made to a technician who reported in the sax forum a wide range of faults in new Selmer saxes. That was almost certainly me.
I see enough saxes and clarinets direct from the factory to report a pattern of being often very disappointed with the lack of quality standards in production. Perhaps I should add that being a perfectionist soul, and quite analytical about proper mechanical function, I am likely to notice a lot that many players (or even technicians) may not notice.
I made a list of such items for saxes, and some items on that list have since received attention. There is enormous variety in these faults, some just annoying, but some that may haunt reliability for a long time.
I could not make up a list for clarinets without making records as I work on making the next few shipments playable (and a lot more reliable).
I have seen a range of problems with Buffet also. I have seen some Buffet pads of disgracefully low quality..... very thin, brittle membranes which last only a year or two. A few decades ago, Buffet pads were superb.
Why should any assumptions be made that enormous care is exerted by all of the many staff in pushing huge quantities of instruments through production lines? That sounds contrary to human nature, in the West at any rate.
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Author: Jim E.
Date: 2003-10-07 04:45
We purchased a new AS300 alto sax (entry level) from Muncy Winds in Sept of 2001. The horn played fine, but after a few months we noticed discoloration forming under the lacquer at most of the solder joints holding the posts to the body. As someone who solders regularly (though not usually on brass,) I surmise this was from incomplete removal/ neutralization of the flux at the factory. Though a minor flaw that did not affect playing at all, we did not want to take a possible hit on re-sale value later. Selmer's warranty specifically included the finish for a year. Working through the dealer, Muncy Winds, the horn was returned to Selmer in Elkhardt, IN. It took 2 months to learn that they had received it and would cover it under the warranty, and another 2 months for the repair and return. Each communication from Selmer came only after Pam Muncy contacted them to inquire. In the end, the horn arrived beautifully refinished. Also, a felt bumper and the neck cork had failed, and Selmer took care of those as well. I was most pleased with the service from Muncy Winds, but was terribly disapointed with Selmer's and would think twice about buying another Selmer instrument.
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Author: saxlite
Date: 2003-10-07 06:00
I have had a Selmer Series III alto for three wonderful years now...like it better in almost every way than my trusty old MK VI...it was purchased from The Saxophone Shop in Evanston.Ill who gave it the once over before delivery. The only problem I have ever had is the tiny "corks" that are in the G# and Bb adjustment screws fell out. These were not made of cork but some kind of gummy plastic-the glue did not hold. I made some real cork replacements and the horn has been perfect since. I am also quite satisfied with my Series 10 SII soprano clarinet. I have a closet full of various MK VI saxes and have played an old 50's Centered tone clarinet for many years. I think Selmer makes as good if not better horns as anyone out there and I've tried 'em all. All "anti-Selmer" rumors to the contrary, just buy your horn from a reliable dealer and be happy ever after.....
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Author: bp (F)
Date: 2003-10-07 06:27
Gordon wrote :
"I have seen a range of problems with Buffet also. I have seen some Buffet pads of disgracefully low quality..... very thin, brittle membranes which last only a year or two. A few decades ago, Buffet pads were superb."
I fully agree with that.
My new RC bought about 1 year ago needed 90% of its pads to be changed!
I am convinced that they were of really poor quality and that I am not a pad killer because I could play without any problem my Recital during 6 years, without changing any pad....
I also have a doubt about the silver quality. It tends to be a bit lustreless.
After only 1 year, I can't imagine it after 5 years and over...
I don't know if this is because it is a regular RC and not a Prestige. You may know the same story with R13.
The horn is really great (thank you Michel Arrignon for selecting it for me) but my pleasure is not complete with these low quality problems.
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Author: Wes
Date: 2003-10-07 08:34
In my opinion, many factory new instruments require work to make them play properly. For example, all the Mark VI selmer saxes that I've seen needed tone hole truing to remove the scars of milling in the factory. Yet, I own 6 Mark VIs and like them. Many clarinets, flutes, and oboes also need work when new. The Series III Selmer saxes are super and my soprano plays and improvises great with little work from me but it needed some minor pad adjustments. The problem is the cost of manufacturing and the cost of hand work required to make any instrument work well. Don't be surprized if a new instrument needs work.
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Author: sömeone
Date: 2003-10-07 12:15
I am not trying to criticize selmer. I do know that selmer has a long history and that they do produce very good instruments. But it seems that they are becoming more and more inconsistent. Brands like Yanagisawa and Yamaha are indeed becoming more and more popular.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2003-10-07 12:19
sömeone wrote:
> But it seems that they are becoming more and more inconsistent.
> Brands like Yanagisawa and Yamaha are indeed becoming more and
> more popular.
And I'm not sure either statement is accurate (they may be, but I've not seen anything dependable ...)
Remember, Hans Moennig used to tear apart and rebuild just about every woodwind instrument he got his hands on because of deficiences - and that was during the supposed "golden years" of woodwind instrument manufacturing.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2003-10-07 13:51
Clarinetists are lucky. Every bassoonist I've spoken to about the subject says Heckels are unplayable as they come from the factory. A friend who went to Moennig said he made dozens of adjustments on his Heckel, and a look at the photos accompanying the articles on Alvin Swiney's site http://www.corkpad.com/article.html shows some horrible examples.
Mark - How many adjustments did your boat need when you got it?
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2003-10-07 13:53
Good point...
There seems a presumption that things "Were better then" in comparing the surviving vintage instruments with current products.
It's my less than humble opinion that companies retain customers by making generational improvements and reducing costs.
It is my contention that there are more high-quality, inexpensive instruments (compare dollar values from the 'Golden Ages' to nowadays)
available to more players (volume of output) than ever before.
It's customers that are driving this trend toward quality for less money.
******
In the 1930's, following the inception of the Depression, how many companies survived? Probably the ones managing to deliver an affordable instrument at reasonable profits.
$2000 USD is alot of money, no question.
Will you get closer to perfection for more money? Certainly, but the scale of added costs is not linear. It's like turning a scratch golfer into a PGA pro...
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-10-07 14:01
I suspect that part of the glory handed out to so-called 'vintage' instruments is due to them having been around for long enough for technicians to have attended to most/all of the manufacturing deficiencies.
To me it is modern-day disgrace that simple things like rusting springs (and rusting resonators on saxes) have not been attended to at manufacturing level.
To use high quality stainless steel for the springs, and design appropriate post and spring cradle configuration such that diameter-to-length ratios are functiuonally suitable, should be a very basic part of modern instrument design.
Another current curse is the easily-broken plastic 'pips' in the linkage from low levers to keys on clarinets. Production may be a little quicker, but these items are likely to produce unexpected problems until they are eventually replaced with a stronger polymer, or metal as per traditional manufacture.
Such items just keep appearing in modern production from both Buffet and Selmer.
At lest they keep technicians in business.
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2003-10-07 14:41
As alluded to by both SB and Gordon, one of the reasons we're so enamored of older instruments is that 'natural selection' over the decades has caused the really bad ones to disappear forever, while a good percentage of the remaining instruments, being better than average for their time at the beginning, tended to be better cared-for than the mediocre ones---thus the better instruments survived to this day, skewing our perception of vintage instruments. I suspect there were scads of lousy instruments made back then during the alleged 'golden years' --- they just didn't make it into the present century.
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Author: William
Date: 2003-10-07 15:00
The only comments I have heard regarding Selmer saxophones is that, in their day (the Mark VI era) they were the best. They are still considered good, but the newer saxes--in particular, Yanagisawa--are much better in tune and have more even scales. And, the keyworks are smoother.
However, I continue to play my VI's and as I like that legendary Selmer "sound".
Selmer clarinets (the newer ones)??--have not found one that plays better--or even as good--as either my Buffets or my LeBlancs. My personal experiance only--no hearsay. Having previously played on Semer CT's and 9*s, I switched to Buffet R13s many years ago and have never looked back--except to audition some of the new Selmer Signitures, which I did not like.
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Author: Mark Pinner
Date: 2003-10-07 15:10
Like Gordon I encounter plenty of Selmers. The saxophones definitely need setting up out of the factory. There are some preference issues also. I personally do not like Series III altos and much prefer the Series II, by choice I play Mark VII which probably explains my bias toward the II. Selmer players, as opposed to those who just hypothesise, will no what I am talking about viz a vis the size of the keywork. I am also not a great fan of the triple octave mechanism. The series III tenors are great in general but so are the Series II, also in general. I have tried a fair number of the Reference models and have found them to be nothing more than a price gouge. I have found good examples of both but do not find them noticeably better than any other new Selmers. I do not play baritone so I won't comment. Selmer sopranos have never been rated particularly highly. Yanigasawa make nice saxophones after the 990 series. I have owned both alto (993) and tenor (991) and have since sold both as I find the tone of the Selmers superior in every way. I have also played a 9903 tenor and found it to be a waste of time as it was no better than the 991 and far more expensive. I have played alto and tenor 82Z and 875 and they have a nice action and even scale but feel stuffy and not a patch on Selmer. There are a lot of people with a lot of opinions on Selmer saxes who have never even tried one. The Japanese saxophones don't even go close although they are perfectly good instruments in their own right. I think the saying amongst Selmer owners is "it just isn't a Selmer". The most disappointing saxes of all time have got to be Keilwerth.
As for clarinets I am an Oehler system player but I repair, test and set up Selmers of various types. There is a cracking problem with certain models notably the 10S and 10G and the Centre Tone bells and have heard of some with the more modern horns are susceptible. The new horns all need to be set up as per the saxophones. Selmer clarinet players swear by them and will not play anything else. I find they are heavy, not to play but to hold up. Great tone, even scale and good volume range. A bit pricey. The more recent model that seems to shine is the Recital.
I also deal with the odd Selmer brass instrument. The trombones are not that popular being very similar to the Conn in construction and identical in bore sizes. You must remember the French school of trombone playing is different to everywhere else. Excellent cornets and their trumpets are popular in Europe. Price is also an issue.
They make crash hot accoustic guitars, steel string including the Macaferri used by Django Reinhardt and he could play.
Boy this subject is subjective!
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2003-10-08 15:11
Sure is subjective, all right.......back in the early '80s when I was shopping for a new/used tenor sax for myself I tried out TEN (10) Selmer Mk. VIs and one Keilwerth-made H.Couf --- I bought the Couf and never regretted it --- it served me well for 15 years thereafter. I've never cared for the Mk.VI Selmers and have never really understood the mystique that's grown up around them.
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2003-10-08 18:14
i play a set of Recitals that were Brannenized and they play magnificently!!!!!
David Dow
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Author: jbutler ★2017
Date: 2003-10-08 23:00
1. I agree that Selmer has some issues with new saxophones.
2. I would choose Yanigasawa over Selmer if I needed to purchase a new saxophone.
3. Keilworth did make a great saxophone under the H.Couf label, I'm not too thrilled by the new ones.
4. Steve Goodson has done a lot of R&D for Unison. I think the Unison saxophone will eventually become very popular.
5. I've not had that much contact with new Selmer clarinets, but I sure like the vingtage models.
6. Speaking of vintage models, I sold a REAL dog of a MKVI tenor and bought GREAT Buffet SuperDynaction (vintage 1971) and never regretted it.
jbutler
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2003-10-09 12:47
I would say Buffet has as many quality control trouble consider the amount of different models that they produce.
David Dow
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Author: diz
Date: 2003-10-09 22:18
How about we not discuss quality problems ... it's all very difficult UNLESS you've seen the entire range from each manufacturer. I wouldn't not judge Selmer (for example) as being bad or below quality based on a couple of instruments (nor Buffet, Leblanc or Yamaha for that matter).
Mark C pointed out in another thread that rumour-mongering is anathema (I paraphrase here) and counter-productive ... apart from anything else it's not provable.
I'm sure GBK has seen some not quite perfect Buffet's (afterall he owns more than anyone else I know). Brenda's probably seen some 99% Leblancs et cetera (Brenda - where are you, I miss your threads) but in GENERAL we have a bias to a brand (for whatever esoteric reason) and stick with it and accept that not everything can be delivered with 100% quality. As to saxophones, I dunno, but Mark Pinner's certainly got a few lovely Selmers and I'm sure he's seen a few duds, too, but this constant bagging is tedious and boring.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-10-10 03:51
What bothers me is that the average buyer imagines that by getting a top-of-the-range, very expensive, new instrument he is getting the pinnacle of perfection.
It is left to the hapless technicians to break the sad news.
To keep buyers informed of reality in this forum serves some purpose in lowering their expectations to somewhere closer to reality.
For example, (oversimplified) you buy the new Buffet, then get it repadded to establish good reliability. The low quality, original pads were only there for showroom purposes.
.....Or you pay more, where the retailer has already done this for you.
Imagine having to accept re-upholstering your car within a couple of years! Yet this is the reality some high-reputation manufacturers are expecting us to accept.
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Author: Tim K
Date: 2003-10-10 14:01
Discussions like this result in better-informed buyers. No one has said musicians should not buy Selmers or Buffets. The posters have simply alerted people to be aware of, and check the instruments for, various problems that have been observed. The message I have gotten from the comments of Gordon, Mark Pinner and others is that if I buy a new Selmer I should shop responsible retailers with reputations for good service.
Post Edited (2003-10-10 14:19)
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Author: clarinetwife
Date: 2003-10-10 18:23
David Dow--
I was interested to hear that you play on a set of Recitals. Maybe this should be another thread, but how do your Recitals mesh with the other instruments in the groups you play in, especially orchestra? I have a 10G and a Recital, and it is always interesting deciding which one to play in a particular setting.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-10-11 09:41
Wise conclusion, Tim. For almost ANY clarinet, it is important to have quality follow up service if needed.
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Author: RM
Date: 2003-10-11 12:45
In all this talk abut saxophone brands, no one has mentioned the Martin, probably the finest sax ever made, too bad they went out of business...
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Author: Fred
Date: 2003-10-11 12:49
Vintage Martins are some incredible saxes. But as a note of irony pertaining to this thread, the later saxes carrying the Martin name were made by . . . Yanagisawa.
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Author: Bradley
Date: 2003-10-11 15:14
Hans-
From your reply I realize I might've mis-understood something you said in the earlier comment. "IMO, this type of rumor and anecdote " to my comprehension there wasn't any "making fun of" or "bad talking" going on against Selmer, just people sharing their experiences. When I read further into your post it seemed to me you just felt that way because of your particular "good" experience with Selmer and that you owned 3 or w/e. You not wanting any of that to go on period because of how you have come to own Selmers was in my opinion bias, but I could just be understanding the whole thing wrong.
In reply to what you said about my comment at the end of your later post, I believe that CURRENTLY that is the situation. I'm not saying that Recitals and Signatures aren't good (like it seems some of the posters here would like to), but their $2500 price tag is above that of what is to me the comparable Buffet or Selmer in playing quality (not add ons, which brings up the price of the Opus and Prestige models). Selmer has certainly had their competitive models in the past decades. And even if they have been around for 100 years, that in itself does not mean a whole lot. Noblet has been around for 250 years, and would you say it is because they have always made fantastic clarinets? Buffet, even with their R13 has had to be bought and sold twice since its introduction. A model or even a bunch of models being made at that time does not mean anything really, management being what counts when it comes to how long a company lasts. And even with their 100 years, I have heard more than once that they had to make bicycle tires during/ after the depression to survive.
Bradley
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Author: Tim K
Date: 2003-10-11 15:38
The top-level Martins were good saxes (including the Yanagisawa stencils), but so were Selmer, Conn, Buescher, SML, Couf, Buffet, Leblanc, Keilwerth and others. In this august company "finest" is a matter of personal preference. But the US-made Martins were probably the heaviest and the loudest.
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