 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2003-09-28 15:37
Hi,
I'm considering getting the ATG System from Tom Ridenour Products. I thought there was a mention on the BB recently of someone using this system but a search using various combinations of the keywords did not yield any results. This might be a new topic then.
Has anyone had any experience with the ATG? I have great respect to Tom Ridenour and all his products but need a little intelligence before purchase.
Thanks,
HRL
Post Edited (2003-09-28 23:59)
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Author: fmadison
Date: 2003-09-30 20:59
Hi,
I personally use a Reedual and just copy my favorite reed over and over again. Just call it reed cloning.....
But I have to tell you Tom's ATG system is wonderful!
I just bought one box of V12 #4 reeds and usually you have one or two playable reeds right out of the box.
Using Tom's ATG system my experience has been that 8 out of the 10 will play fantastic at least 4 for performance and 4 for daily practice.
You will have to get the hang of it using the ATG but you will be amazed how many great reeds you will be making. (adjusting)
I give it the highest marks for something that is so simple and yet so effective. I use the ATG in concert with my Reedual.
The ATG will pay for itself on your first box....
Let us know here how things go for you.
-Frank
It's the wood that makes it good!
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Author: Ray
Date: 2003-09-30 21:43
Well, Frank said it well. I have used the ATG for about five months, and I have never failed to get a reed to play very well. Most of the time I get the reed to play excellently. I have never made a reed worse than it was.
The ATG system is intended to finish and adjust reeds that are fairly close to being the right reed for your mouthpiece, but I have been often resurrecting "bad" reeds or reeds that are way too hard for my mouthpiece(s). This is more work than finishing reeds that are already pretty close. In this case, more work might mean as much as five or eight minutes of testing and sanding to get the unplayable reed up to very good. Right now I rotate among eight reeds (mixed brands) and don't care which one I play.
The longer you use the system the more sensitive to the testing results you become and the faster you get great reeds. I have used several systems over the years. I have always been one to try to get the best out of a reed. The ATG system works far better than anything else I have used. I even got some old Olivieri 4 1/2 Tempered reeds to play!
Mr. Ridenour recommends adjusting reeds the first time you play them, not after a break-in period. He argues that playing an unbalanced reed is causing it to vibrate in the wrong way. That can do harm to the reed, and certainly does no good. I have followed his advice and find that my reeds change very little or not at all after the first adjusting session and during the "break-in". In truth, I don't think there is really a break-in period for a well balanced reed. There is just a long play-it-and-enjoy-it-period.
BTW, I have seen Mr. Ridenour demonstrate the system during which he adjusted a Legere reed to play beautifully. The Legere is harder than cane and takes more time, but the ATG system is effective on them too.
I have shown the system to several people. Those who have gotten it are sticking with it and are very happy.
Best regards,
Ray
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Author: CPW
Date: 2003-10-01 00:36
duh....I looked at his website and still not entirely sure what the "system"
does. It looks like it has some sandpaper and a block, but otherwise how is it different from a routine balancing adjustment??
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Author: fmadison
Date: 2003-10-01 02:14
Hi,
Routine balancing adjustment does not even come close how this ATG system does it.
1. Your sanding the reed against the grain.
2. The testing routines and method of stroking the reeds goes against most conventional wisdom. ( No pun intended)
This system is a complete paradigm shift on how reeds are adjusted.
I used to use dutch rush for balancing and ATG is light years ahead in technique and most importantly results. No contest.....
I think it is around 30 bucks... but don't quote me. I bought a few a while back.
-Frank
It's the wood that makes it good!
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2003-10-01 02:34
Hi,
I am in no way connected with Ridenour Clarinet Products.
I just bought an ATG on eBay and the price was $44.95 (25% off regular and it comes with a DVD) plus shipping. I have been talking to Tom on email the past few days and he was really high on the system so I figured, what the heck.
The testimonials from players like Eddie Daniels (Tom says this was completely unsolicitied) were glowing. I'm anxious to try it.
Thanks to the others for their excellent comments. I'll report back.
HRL
Post Edited (2003-10-01 02:38)
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Author: Ed
Date: 2003-10-01 12:07
What items besides the book come with this system? Are there actual tools?
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Author: CPW
Date: 2003-10-01 13:22
A brief synopsis of how it works or what the method entails would be appreciated....so far (please take no offense) the descriptions are vague.
The ebay offer is about $45 plus s/h so it is not expensive, but still costs enough to warrant some thought before blindly purchasing.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2003-10-01 13:44
Hi,
Please remember, I just bought the ATG System and I will report back on my results. I do not have it yet.
However, the results that FM and Ray indicate seem to be extremely interesting. If I don't like it, I can always sell it on eBay I guess.
HRL
Post Edited (2003-10-01 13:46)
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Author: wyatt
Date: 2003-10-01 14:51
ebay was around 40 bucks.
the link above to brook mays was 15 plus 5 for s/h.
don't go ebayh
bob gardner}ÜJ
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2003-10-01 14:55
Hi,
I think the eBay system has a DVD where as the Brooks May probably does not. It is hard to imagine that Tom Ridenour would sell something on eBay with a 25% off and Brooks May, one of his outlets I think, would charge so much less. I think it is all about the DVD but if you are not sure, just email Tom at his company. Maybe BM has made some sort of error?
HRL
Post Edited (2003-10-06 01:32)
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Author: Ray
Date: 2003-10-01 14:57
The System consists of a sanding block with fine, washable sandpaper (400 grit) on one side and 320 grit on the other; a piece of glass in the plastic box; either a video tape or CDROM or DVD or book or maybe some sort of video along with the book; and a quick start guide.
There have been several versions or documentation supplied with the system and I am not up to date. I suggest emailing or calling Mr. Ridenour.
The price on the Brook Mays site is very low - I suspect they are closing out an old version that came with a videotape. I know Mr. Ridenour has produced better video since the videotape.
The $45 paid by Hank is more in the ballpark.
Its pretty hard to describe the methods without pictures. Basically, you sand the reed by moving the block *up* the vamp of the reed, towards the butt. Not *down* the vamp, towards the tip. ATG stands for Against The Grain - sanding in the direction opposite to every other method I know of. There are specific sanding motions and areas of the reed to sand shown in the video and the book. If I were to try to describe them in a detailed way I would be giving away the knowledge that Mr. Ridenour has painstakingly gained through much study and experimentation.
Best regards,
Ray
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2003-10-01 15:21
Ray wrote:
> The System consists of a sanding block with fine, washable
> sandpaper (400 grit) on one side and 320 grit on the other;
Such an animal exists at most hardware stores in the paint section; the block is made of a relatively stiff foam.
Mark C., who is using exactly such a block made by 3M in preparation for painting some rooms ...
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2003-10-01 16:51
Ray,
You are correct about the intellectual properties issue. Tom Ridenour has every right to charge for this information. I think the DVD will be worth every penny.
HRL
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Author: wyatt
Date: 2003-10-02 00:40
when i placed my order with brooks may they told me that the price was $15.00 complete. will let you know what i get for $15.00.
since Brooks is his main store i have no worries about the system.
peace
bob gardner}ÜJ
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Author: Ray
Date: 2003-10-02 17:37
I have the true poop now about what the System includes. I hope this clarifies things a bit:
The tools supplied in both systems (Ebay and Brook Mays) are the same, but the information supplied is different.
The complete system (Ebay) is aimed at experienced players who are prepared to absorb all the information it includes. There is a 40 minute DVD in which Mr. Ridenour demonstrates the testing and adjusting procedures, and his 42 page book that is a thorough outlay of the objective elements of the reed's structure, testing methods, and finishing methods.
The Brook Mays version of the system is much more basic, aimed at younger players. It does not include the book or the DVD, nor should it, since the object for younger players is to introduce them to reed finishing and help them begin to be successful, not to confuse them. It includes a quick start guide and a 15 minute videotape which includes demonstrations, but not as detailed or extensive as the DVD.
I am not connected with Ridenour Clarinet Products in any way (although that doesn't sound like a bad idea). I am just a satisfied customer.
Best regards,
Ray
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Author: cujo
Date: 2003-10-03 05:42
WOW All i use is 2 sheets of wet-dry sandpaper, 120 grit for cutting and 400 grit for finishing touches and for very light cutting all done on small block of wood about the size and width of a bari-sax reed. Cost me less than $2 for a lifetime supply of sandpaper if I only use on reeds, works well and fast. I just use a regular razor to nip the tip, hold the reed next to a good one with thier tables together and sand carfully exactly matching them together, works quite well.
I like to copy my best reeds by holding them up to the light and shaping them the same by darkness seen through.
I think most machines are not worth thier wieght. And with sandpaper you can perfectly match what you want in a reed. Not some predetermined thickness by whoever made the machine. By sanding the sides or around the tip or close to the table you can "shape" which notes are easier to play and which sound better.
Post Edited (2003-10-03 05:44)
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Author: donald
Date: 2003-10-03 13:59
at Clarinetfest i saw my old teacher use this system- he has been making/adjusting reeds for years using Reedual/knife/rush etc with good result. He was quite keen on the tools and info provided my Mr Ridenour and i would regard his endorsement as high praise not given lightly.
in my experience, Mr R is very good at explaining things, and from my own reed fixing sessions with him can say that he is very methodical where reeds are concerned. In answer to the "oh, this stuff just costs $5 from a hardware store" types i would say that what you are paying for is the DVD/Video outlining Ridenours methodical aproach.
this guy knows what he is talking about, is capable of adjusting reeds so they play like gold, and is very good at explaining to you how/why he does what he does. Worth paying for i'd say.
donald
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Author: fmadison
Date: 2003-10-03 14:32
Hi Donald,
I second that motion too....
Get the ATG system that has the DVD.
It is like watching tv in black and white and one day you get a color tv.
I bought every known reed adjusting book that has been published and the ATG system is light years ahead. I don't endorse many things but this ATG is at the top of the food chain for reed adjustmenting systems.
I don't believe a dissatisfied ATG customer even exists.
-Frank
It's the wood that makes it good!
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Author: wyatt
Date: 2003-10-03 23:35
i received the system without the dvd but with the video. for my money and my needs this is all i need. i finished 6 reeds in about 15 minutes after watching the video.
the system works and the price was right.
bob gardner}ÜJ
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Author: msroboto
Date: 2003-10-04 12:13
Well ordered from EBay and still waiting to recieve it.
Sigh....I can't wait
Thanks guys and gals
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2003-10-04 14:14
Hi,
Initial report: 30 minutes of DVD, 5 minutes of tool peparation, 15 minutes of testing and adjustment on 3 reeds that were not-ready-for-prime time = 2 reeds that now blow my soxes off and one that still needs a little minor tweaking which I'll do when I have more time.
A truly amazing thing the ATG. Above all, watch the whole DVD before proceeding. Tom's instructions are clear and concise. There are about 5 basic sanding motions to learn and then you are ready to go.
HRL
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Author: BobD
Date: 2003-10-04 15:11
All very interesting. I too have the highest respect for TR's reputation. Sanding against the grain is a new approach but if you have done any woodworking you will realize there is a place for such procedure. Reed fibre structure being what it is it is easy to conceptualize that sanding or shaving with the grain depresses some fibres rather than cutting them. I guess.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2003-10-05 19:05
Hi,
I finished another bunch of reeds this AM. Most are really players and the ones that are not could be used for practice but with so many good reeds now available, why bother.
One suggestion though is watch the DVD a couple of times and then have at it.
HRL
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Author: msroboto
Date: 2003-10-18 17:18
My ATG system did arrive early last week and I finally watched the video. I think I would describe myself as a clarinet hack. I don't play particularly well and have never really had much success fiddling with reeds. ahem...excuse me finishing reeds.
This is actually sort of amazing I grabbed a total non-player and in like 1 minute it at least plays. I don't know if for my purposes I need anything more than that....
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2003-10-18 21:51
Ms R,
I, too, have grabbed some non-players and made them work right away. I now have a whole bunch of great reeds. More than I have ever had and most of them reeds that I thought were dead ducks. My next big project to to go into my reject box and see if I can bring some of them back to life.
The whole ATG thing is pretty empowering!
HRL
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Author: Bellflare
Date: 2003-10-19 01:31
i got one of the systems.
The balance thing is good, but it does not mean that the overalll sound is great. It just makes them playable.
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Author: msroboto
Date: 2003-10-19 03:13
Well Bell so far I'm happy.
Remember I am just a hack and have not had great success with other techniques. I can just concentrate on playing the reed (at least for practice) instead of adjusting / looking for something that will play for me.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2003-10-19 10:36
The system does sound interesting ....but I'm thinking that for the cost including shipping you'd have to have a lot of "bad" reeds to salvage to justify the cost. And, once salvaged, do they stay good...and for how long.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2003-10-19 20:06
Bob,
I haven't used it, but I do plan on getting and using it. True, it'd take a lot of reeds, but for a person like me who plans on having a lot of good reed using years left, I would plan on saving a lot of reeds.
And as for how long the reeds last, I figure since you probably wouldn't have been able to play on those "mediocre" reeds before, that if they're made great and even if they only last a week, it's worth it. You just upped their lasting value from unusable to one week.
Of course, this is a lot of hot air from someone who hasn't even used the product, but from judging by the replies on how well it works and how dramatic the changes can be, I'd assume this is what I can expect.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2003-10-20 02:50
Hi,
I have not business interest or relationship with Ridenour Products.
However, since I started this thread, I better give you one more observation. Let me speak about the ATG System from the eduactional standpoint. The ATG provides for me feedback in the three Domains of Learning: Cognitive, Affective, and Psychomotor.
I know the reasons for adjusting my reeds in the ATG way (Cognitive); I can actually do the adjustments easily and repeatitively (Psychomotor); and I value and appreciate the ATG System and what it can do for me (Affective). But if those things are not important to you, don't try it.
Whether the price is too high, think of the cost of about 3 or 4 boxes of good reeds; maybe some are good and others are not. With this system, IMHO there is a much higher chance that you will have reeds that play well for you.
Just a satisfied customer.
HRL
PS Bob, sell off one of those Vitos you've got stacked in the basement!
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Author: NMumphrey
Date: 2004-02-21 01:37
I have to say that the ATG system was money well spent.
Reeds naturally have divots, unbalanced surfaces, and unevenly cut sides during the processing of the reed. This is to be understood due to the idea that millions of reeds are made by machines in order to fulfill the more then demanding market. The mass production of reeds makes the quality of the reed balancing get worse with the increasing numbers in production.
The ATG system:
Evenly removes the divots in the reed, and makes the reed smooth to the touch. The Foam, which lies under the sand paper surface, allows for a nice FORMED curve as you sand over the reed (cutting the surface area evenly). When you shave your face, how do you cut? Do you cut with the grain or against? The ATG system goes against the grain so that the cut is closer...and don't worry, the reed tip won't be damaged.
By play testing the reed (the DVD will explain this in more detail) you can tell which side is unbalanced. By angling the sander you can trim just a little off the edge of one side. Once both sides are balanced, the tone and clarity of pitch can not only be heard, but also be felt by the player.
A balanced reed is a good reed. The ATG system is the only reed finishing system I use right now, and as for all of the other reed finishing tools? Well look on ebay; I'll be selling them soon.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2004-02-21 02:55
NM,
I still use the ATG all the time. I can't imagine doing without it.
I actually have more good palying reeds than I have ever had before. The big thing though is that I can tweak, with little effort, any reed and make it play better.
Talk about being empowered!
HRL
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Author: BobD
Date: 2004-02-21 21:26
Hank: I've got a steamer trunk full of old reeds. I could send them to you.
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Author: Joe B
Date: 2004-02-21 22:58
I just received my ATG system yesterday. The DVD that came with it was coming up with "Disk Error" so I've asked Mr. Ridenour to send another one. I paid $59 on eBay with the "Buy It Now". I didn't have use of the DVD so I was forced to read the 40 page booklet (Oh, no, not the instructions). You can also get by with just the "Quick Start" guide that he provides. Even without the use of the video, I was able to finish 5 Vandoren V12 reeds that I had marked as unplayable in just a short time. I have just saved throwing away 5 reeds and made them play like they were the best of the box. I figure with the price of reeds and both my wife and I being clarinet players, I'll easily get my money back. I also feel there is a great deal of satisfaction in taking a reed that is only good for picking your teeth and making it one your gems. I feel I now have control over my reeds, instead of them controlling me. As far as I'm concerned, buying the ATG system is money well spent.
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Author: Ratanapol
Date: 2004-02-22 13:54
-What different between remove material the "ear&rail" and "ear only"??? when I test the reed how to know which part of reed ( espesialy "ear&rail" and "ear only") should I remove material???
-Finishing the tip of reed is the last process to do?? and finishing for what??
Thank you
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2004-02-22 15:32
I think you have to experiment so that you know when the ear or the rail needs adjusting. We each have our own concept of "what's a good reed" and even more importantly "what's a good sound."
I'd experiment and see what the effects of working each area gives you. Sacrifice an old reed!!!! Nothing to lose.
HRL
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2004-02-22 22:46
I haven't been able to try it, but I'm willing to bet that with the ATG system and a good reed clipper, you could make reeds last many times longer. They play soft, clip them and readjust. When they get too soft again, clip again (all the while sanding the back flat). I bet this would work out pretty well in the end.
Alexi
PS - a few good sanitation treatments would help to if this were to be tried!
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Amanda S
Date: 2004-03-13 17:49
Wow...this thing sounds awesome! Could a 14 year old use it with success?
Amanda
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Author: Rev. Avery
Date: 2004-03-13 17:53
Absolutely. Get it with the DVD. He explains it in simple, easy terms while demonstrating how to do it.
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Author: msroboto
Date: 2004-03-13 18:10
Well if a 40+ year old hack can use it with success I bet a 14 year old can too. It is easy to use. I was able to grab total non-playing reeds and make them totally playable. Maybe those weren't the BEST but they played.
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Author: presto214
Date: 2004-05-20 16:03
I've had the ATG for about 2 1/2 weeks and i guess I haven't gotten the hang of it yet. I've ruined several reeds throughout the weeks and I can't seem to find what im doing wrong. After finishing it I put it back on the mouthpiece and when I play low notes and try to tounge them, a very loud and high-pitched squeak comes out before the acatual note comes out, and the overall tone of the reed is worse. Maybe some of you could offer me some suggestions
AAHHH!
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2004-05-20 18:36
You might be taking too much wood off. It has to be very gentle, loving, lighthanded strokes. I don't put ANY pressure downwards, and only do about two or three scrapes before I retest the reed. Maybe you are using too much force or sanding far too long?
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: John Scorgie
Date: 2004-05-21 23:34
Alexi makes a very important point.
If clarinet or sax players just starting out on reed adjusting were to watch several of us old timers fix some reeds, two features common to almost all of our "systems" would make an immediate impression:
1) how fast the process goes; and
2) regardless of our individual choices of tools, how little wood we actually remove from most of our reeds -- dust, not shavings.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2004-05-22 00:26
Hi,
Both Alexi and John make very valid points. As easy as the ATG is to use, a little bit can go a long way. It is like the Bonade quote on the use of a reed clipper which is "take only a hair's-breadth off."
Restraint appears to be very important here; a little bit goes a long way.
HRL
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Author: fredackerman
Date: 2004-05-22 00:51
Dear Hank, I forgot to get back to you, this system works like you said it would. Thank's,
Fred
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Author: presto214
Date: 2004-05-26 17:35
I think some of my problems might be the reed testing techniques. Ridenour recommends that the tests be played double lip. Do any of you test reeds while playing double lip. My double lip embochure is horrible and I don't really like using it.
I'm getting real tired of my results. I've ruined 10 reeds in a 3 week span and only made about 2 reeds better. It makes it harder that my private instructor doesn't believe in reed finshing and doesn't use it himself. I'm thinking about taking private lessons with a clarinet professor at another university becuase he is more qualified and does use reed finishing.
AAHHH!
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2004-05-26 21:59
You may also want to look at different reeds. Do searches on them because some reeds are definitely more consistent out of each batch meaning that each reed needs LESS (if any) balancing.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: TomS
Date: 2021-03-02 01:05
Well, finally I parted with 80 bucks and purchased the ATG system the other day ... I had one of the "tools" or sanding blocks, given to me years ago, but had only sketchy ideas on how to use it.
The information in the provided book and the well produced video make things clear ... but it's worth reinforcing some precautions that I will mention shortly.
I practiced on some old Traditional 3.5 reeds that were sitting on "The Green Mile" and they were granted a last minute pardon. These had been less than skillfully tweaked in the distant past and not stored in the best conditions. Still, I was able to get most to perform well (a couple were amazing) on my VD M15/13 series. I threw away scores of reeds a couple of weeks ago before getting the ATG system, but somehow kept these ... thankfully.
Next, I tried a new box of Reserve Evolution #3.0, which were originally purchased to work with my Reserve Evolution MP. I wanted to see if they would work with the M15. It's easier and you have better results if you start with fresh reeds, and these had been un-played and stored for several weeks in a 72% humidity plastic box. The Evolution reeds run a little stiff for the strength, but some were borderline too soft for the M15. I tested/adjusted 5 reeds in 30 minutes and all played well (again, a couple were "super reeds"), albeit a tiny bit soft (and I don't bite). As these break in, usually I have found that the resistance increases, so they may be OK, later. I was lucky in assessment of balance and made no errors in which side to adjust. Use your best French embouchure for testing, even if you play single lip.
The tip finishing procedure alone, does truly seem to improve most reeds ... sometimes, that is all you need. It's stupid simple.
I can see that I am on the road to having some reeds that I've only played in my dreams. A few that I adjusted over the last couple of days turned out as good or better than any I've ever played, since I first started clarinet in 1963.
A couple of things, IMHO to watch: (1) When you load the tool (or specialized sanding block) with abrasives, try to not fold or crease the abrasive paper. It should have a smooth radius of curvature around the edges of the tool. (2) Remember that the removal of reed material should be only on the stroke UP the vamp of the reed (Against The Grain). This is not clear on the videos, but mentioned in Tom's book. On the return stroke, either take most of the pressure off the tool or lift it off the reed. I lift it off ... (3) When removing reed material off the sides or ears, it's the angle of the tool in respect to the reed that does the job. Your hand/arm should move parallel to the reed. (4) Take it carefully, smoothly and with even pressure. Don't get too aggressive on the number of strokes, until you get a knack of what is going on ...
When you realize that you are just removing a few layers of reed molecules, and that makes all the difference, you wonder how machine made reeds can even be as good as they are.
The price of the tool, abrasives, glass working surface and information is well worth the price, as in two days I've gained about 30 good reeds ... an embarrassment of riches! Yeah, you could make your own stuff to do the job, and steal Tom's intellectual property, but I figure my time is worth at least $50/hour, so it's stupid to try to beat the system.
Just get it ... it works!
Tom
Post Edited (2021-03-02 07:33)
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Author: Bill_D
Date: 2021-03-02 22:36
Thanks for the encouraging information about the ATG system.
I'm patiently waiting for the one I ordered to be delivered.
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Author: fernie121
Date: 2021-03-03 22:34
I note on using the ATG system, there isn’t a lot of info on working the C section of the reed. Mostly just the tip. But after years of working on reeds, I find it maybe even more so important to work on the C section of the reed and bring it down. Reeds nowadays tend to be way too thick there, and removing material there on both sides really get the reed vibrating without taking too much material from the tip. Pretty sure ridenour has a video on this.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2021-03-04 01:36
fernie121 wrote:
> I note on using the ATG system, there isn’t a lot of info on
> working the C section of the reed. Mostly just the tip. But
> after years of working on reeds, I find it maybe even more so
> important to work on the C section of the reed and bring it
> down.
I'm not sure what area you mean by "the C section." If it's the areas just inside each edge a little below the tip between the rails and the spine, yes, I find that area to be almost always too thick in modern Vandorens and in several others I've tried. But that's been my reservation about the ATG approach in general. I find it difficult or impossible to get at that area without swiping over the tip on each pass. Many reeds have thick enough tips to stand up to that, and if the tip itself is unbalanced or too thick overall, sanding Against The Grain is a useful technique and Tom Ridenour's sanding tool is a great help. But working with, for one example, Aria reeds, which seem to be consistently much thinner-tipped than most other makes, it seems as though any material taken from the tip area is damaging, and getting past the tip area without sanding it seems easier from the other direction using other tools.
Karl
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Author: OneWatt
Date: 2021-03-04 05:12
Karl said: "...But working with, for one example, Aria reeds, which seem to be consistently much thinner-tipped than most other makes, it seems as though any material taken from the tip area is damaging, and getting past the tip area without sanding it seems easier from the other direction using other tools."
When using the ATG tool, with its tapered/rolled edge, I've found that angling into the side of the reed (diagonally at around 45 deg) but coming into the reed at a point further along the vamp (just below the tip) seems to allow me to reduce the reed's rails a bit without any effect on the tip. This is has produced nice results for me thus far.
I guess one could certainly reach for a different tool at this point, but inasmuch as the ATG tool is invariably in my hand when I'm working on a reed (along with my vixen flat file for the backside of a reed) this has been a convenient way to achieve what you seem to be describing.
This assumes we're referring to what fernie121 refers to as the "C" section. [otherwise, nevermind! ;-) ]
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Author: fernie121
Date: 2021-03-04 09:26
Sorry I should have been more specific. By C section I’m referring to the bottom of the vamp, or the “shoulders” of the reed. The relationship between the tip and the rest of the reed is very important. I do a few swipes at the tip to “near” balance it. Then I test the reed to see if it is requiring biting to play, especially with long tube notes like C,B or low F,E. It usually does. I bring down the “shoulders” by brushing the ATG tool going from the side and across half way on the reed. I do this to both sides (obviously). Once the “bite” is taken out, THEN I test open G for balance and clarity when tapering and all that fun stuff. In which case I’m now balancing left and right of the reed including the tip.
My point is, it’s easy to take too much from the tip trying to get clarity in the sound when all you need to do is take material from the shoulders/bottom of the reed vamp to take the “bite” out of the reed. The tip usually requires very minimal work. Not that they are often balanced. It’s just that it takes very few swipes to make everything even up there.
It took me a while to realize this, and a lot of it is, for me, hard to explain. So I apologize if I’m not very clear.
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Author: nellsonic
Date: 2021-03-04 12:07
Fernie, It's funny you should mention this. Ridenour did a series of Youtube videos last year on French Embouchure that were actually as much or more about working with reeds in just the way you describe. He talks about balancing the reed front to back as well as side to side. When I started to incorporate this methodology it made a huge positive difference to me that I still marvel over.
fernie121 wrote:
> Sorry I should have been more specific. By C section I’m
> referring to the bottom of the vamp, or the “shoulders” of
> the reed. The relationship between the tip and the rest of the
> reed is very important. I do a few swipes at the tip to
> “near” balance it. Then I test the reed to see if it is
> requiring biting to play, especially with long tube notes like
> C,B or low F,E. It usually does. I bring down the
> “shoulders” by brushing the ATG tool going from the side
> and across half way on the reed. I do this to both sides
> (obviously). Once the “bite” is taken out, THEN I test open
> G for balance and clarity when tapering and all that fun stuff.
> In which case I’m now balancing left and right of the reed
> including the tip.
>
> My point is, it’s easy to take too much from the tip trying
> to get clarity in the sound when all you need to do is take
> material from the shoulders/bottom of the reed vamp to take the
> “bite” out of the reed. The tip usually requires very
> minimal work. Not that they are often balanced. It’s just
> that it takes very few swipes to make everything even up there.
>
> It took me a while to realize this, and a lot of it is, for me,
> hard to explain. So I apologize if I’m not very clear.
Anders
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Author: Bill_D
Date: 2021-03-04 15:54
I will be getting the system tomorrow, so maybe the steps will be clearer after I read and view the material.
It seems that the sanding block is so large that it will be hard to focus on the section of the reed of interest without sanding the other sections.
Since the sanding block is flat, does it have to be tilted for some of the steps?
Update: Got it. Instruction is very clear and easy to follow. Next steps: practice, practice, practice.
Post Edited (2021-03-06 02:15)
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Author: TomS
Date: 2021-03-11 22:04
The tool is never purposely tilted, it is laid flat on the finishing glass at the start of each stroke. Of course, the reed thickness tilts the finishing tool as it passes over, but the start of the stroke is flat. It's the gradual curvature of the start of abrasive and the angle that you hold the tool in respect to the reed that does the trick. By laying the tool flat on the glass at the start of the ATG stroke, it calibrates the tool each time, and you are assured of better consistancy of your work.
Oh, I am sure some folks might tilt the tool for some special adjustments ... but not the normal mode of use.
It's really an interesting way this method worked out ... I am sure a complete mathmatical analysis would make a good Masters Thesis.
I don't "seal" or do a final polishing of the reed with 2000 grit sandpaper, but I guess if careful, might be OK, but not sure if it's beneficial or maybe even harmful.
I do just briefly wet the vibrating part of the reed, just before playing (often in tap water). I don't soak the entire reed, as it might encourage the flat side to warp. I don't allow the reed to ever dry out to a low humidity, as I keep a tight MP cap on when counting long rests or after playing, return it to my storage box with a 72% humidity pack. In such high storage humidity, I keep the reeds cool and not in total darkness, as the storage box is clear. The idea is to not let the reeds mold and that will happen if it's hot and dark. I ocassionally wipe them with hydrogen peroxide for cleaning. A moldy. bacteria laden reed might be a health issue ...
The idea is that the three big contributions to early reed demise is, IMHO (and some others, too): (1) unbalanced reed doing it's little destructive twisting dance, as it trys to inefficiently vibrate and the instinctive tendency to "bite" to make the reed work (2) allowing the reed to completly or overly dry out during or after playing and (3) bacteria
My three cents ...
Tom
Post Edited (2021-03-11 22:27)
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Author: OneWatt
Date: 2021-03-12 00:39
Tom wrote ...
"The idea is that the three big contributions to early reed demise is, IMHO (and some others, too): (1) unbalanced reed doing it's little destructive twisting dance, as it trys to inefficiently vibrate and the instinctive tendency to "bite" to make the reed work (2) allowing the reed to completly or overly dry out during or after playing and (3) bacteria"
My experience is shallow, but I'll share my personal observations regarding #2 above:
I've found that "played out" reeds which are left alone to dry out for several days, a week, or more, often spring back to life on their own.
Perhaps they were simply water logged?
But letting them dry out thoroughly (overly? completely?) seems to be just what the reed doctor ordered in such cases.
(Then again, I'm not sure what letting them partially dry out might have accomplished.)
- - - - - - - - - -
Israel = Ancient Hebrew for "Wrestles with God"
Klarinet = Ancient Greek for "Struggles with Reeds"
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Author: fernie121
Date: 2021-03-12 05:18
I know many would disagree, but I don’t think you should ever really get them that wet in the first place that they become waterlogged. I find reeds play best damp, never soaking wet. I light lick coming out of my reed case with a 72% humidifier is all that’s needed.
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Author: kdk
Date: 2021-03-12 05:47
OneWatt wrote:
> I've found that "played out" reeds which are left alone to dry
> out for several days, a week, or more, often spring back to
> life on their own.
>
> Perhaps they were simply water logged?
>
> But letting them dry out thoroughly (overly? completely?) seems
> to be just what the reed doctor ordered in such cases.
>
> (Then again, I'm not sure what letting them partially dry out
> might have accomplished.)
>
Perhaps it might eventually get them waterlogged.
Karl
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Author: SunnyDaze
Date: 2023-08-20 16:22
Hi,
I wondered if I could add a contribution to this long running thread?
I just bought a copy of the ATG Reed Finishing System and it also works brilliantly for me.
I've been having problems with biting and with the airy noise when I try to play quietly, and to start long tones quietly.
I did what the kit says. With my first go, the reed now plays from ppppp (so to speak) at the beginning of the long tone, without any airy noise. I also don't have to change my air and embouchure to make the note start. This seems pretty ideal.
I did get one thing wrong. I washed the sawdust off the reed so I wouldn't get it in my mouth, and I think the tip got a bit wet, because on my second pass with the sanding block I chipped a hole out of the tip of the reed. Oddly, it still plays maginificently, even with the bit missing from the middle.
I noticed that before I started sanding the reed was a bit warped. When I laid it on the glass block, both corners at the tip lifted up off the glass, but it didn't seem to be a problem.
People have commented to me (offlist) that the kit seems expensive. However, it's clear to me that Mr Ridenour has thought a lot about this work, and I like that a musician has the sense to charge for his intellectual property. I reckon if computer scientists and lawyers can do it, then I have no problem with musicians doing it.
I hope this is okay as a contribution. I haven't read the whole thread, but just wanted to add my experience to this one central location for the subject.
Jennifer
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2023-08-20 18:15
Hi All,
Well, 20 years have come and gone since my original post on the ATG. During my time using it, the ATG performed as expected and delivered impressive results. I used it for clarinet, bass clarinet, and all the sax (alto to baritone) reeds.
However, as things go, I slowly but steadily switched over to Legere' reeds on all my instruments except oboe and bassoon. I was pleased with the outcome.
Hank
PS **ATTENTION ALL READERS** I pleasantly noted that this thread has stayed on topic all the way through. All too often posts tend to drift seriously from the original subject. I find that trend to be not only annoying but counterproductive to really getting sold feedback on the initial posting. **STAY ON TOPIC, OR START A NEW THREAD**
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Author: kdk
Date: 2023-08-20 18:21
SunnyDaze wrote:
> I did get one thing wrong. I washed the sawdust off the reed so
> I wouldn't get it in my mouth, and I think the tip got a bit
> wet, because on my second pass with the sanding block I chipped
> a hole out of the tip of the reed. Oddly, it still plays
> maginificently, even with the bit missing from the middle.
>
I think most of us probably adjust reeds when they're moist. Your "airy noise" may have been because the reed was dry.
> I noticed that before I started sanding the reed was a bit
> warped. When I laid it on the glass block, both corners at the
> tip lifted up off the glass, but it didn't seem to be a
> problem.
This could also account for both the airy noise and the chipped reed. The edges should be flat against the glass, or, when the sanding block goes over it the edge can get caught.
Karl
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The Clarinet Pages
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