 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: kurtmagnuson
Date: 2003-09-29 02:11
I have a very old albert system clarinet. It sounds beautiful but it plays very
flat. Is it my embouchure or is it possible that there is something about a 100 year old instrument that this is normal. I use a new mouthpiece on it.
Could it be the mouthpiece since it is also German or the barrel? How can it be fixed?
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Author: Joel Clifton
Date: 2003-09-29 02:27
Could it be tuned in A 442 or 444? I think that those were common long ago.
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"You have to play just right to make dissonant music sound wrong in the right way"
Post Edited (2003-09-29 02:28)
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2003-09-29 02:37
Kurt,
Does the instrument have any markings on it? Sometimes older clarinets were marked "HP" or "LP." Actually HP is the higher one...those run 442-450, depending on the locale the horn was produced for. "LP" (low pitch) is more like 440 which we use today.
Other questions I might ask would be whether all of the sections come from the same horn...or maybe it's even an A clarinet? Even if it's a Bb, the barrel could well be from another horn...
Additionally, the mp you're using may just not be the right one for the horn.
Let's hope ron_b chimes in soon! I've exhausted my (meager) knowledge of older albert system horns!
Katrina
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2003-09-29 02:39
Joel Clifton wrote:
> Could it be tuned in A 442 or 444? I think that those were
> common long ago.
And still common today (442 and 444 are slightly sharp wrt the A=440 standard.
The early low pitch instruments were sometimes pitched about A=435 Hz, which would be quite a bit flat. A shorter barrel might help, but intonation will probably continue to be a problem.
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Author: Joel Clifton
Date: 2003-09-29 02:59
Oh. Duh.
Well, you know, after a long hard day of working, the brain doesn't work at its full capacity . . . et cetera.
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Author: ned
Date: 2003-09-29 04:40
"Other questions I might ask would be whether all of the sections come from the same horn...or maybe it's even an A clarinet? Even if it's a Bb, the barrel could well be from another horn..."
Could be an A clarinet as Katrina suggests. I have a pair of simple system Hawkes & Sons instruments and the A is noticeably a little longer than the Bb. It received only one barrel when I bought the pair and it seems OK for the A, but I use a longer barrel for the Bb. My Bb plays nicely and seems to be fairly well in tune across all registers [something quite a few instruments of this vintage are NOT].
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Author: ron b
Date: 2003-09-29 05:08
Hi, Kat
I'm always happy to chime in but I don't know any more about this than what you and others have already said. Old horns, in my meager experience, are sometimes cursed for being too sharp (HPs) but I've rarely found one to be too flat. Any or all of the suggestions so far could be contrubuting factors. At this point I'd be inclined to agree with you, too, that it might be a H.P. A clarinet :(
- r![[cool]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/cool.gif) n b -
Post Edited (2003-09-29 17:55)
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2003-09-29 17:58
Questions, how flat is it? Are all notes flat? Is it reasonally in tune with itself? While it might be an A horn, its unlikely, so describe the key system , as ?2 rings above 2 rings below?, etc so some of us collectors might be able to help. I'm unfamiliar with German tuning, but about 1900 most insts, as Mark C said, were tuned to 435 [or less?] making them quite flat to present practice of ?442 +. Its prob more than a short barrel can accomplish without detuning much of the cl.!! Play modern! Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Mark Pinner
Date: 2003-09-29 23:34
I have struck the problem a couple of times with old horns. You will probably find the barrell is a little too long. The option is that it is a high pitched A. You can try a shorter barrell and see if it works. I use a click adjustable when I am faced with this problem to check which length will suit. You can generally find a barrell that will suit. Buffet make them in all sorts of lengths, ditto with Yamaha. The only problem is the bore size although I have found that with these older horns it is not that crucial. Another option is to have the existing barrell shortened. The German mouthpiece should not play flat as a matter of course although if you are using French/American reeds instead of the correct size this will have an effect.
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Author: kurtmagnuson
Date: 2003-09-30 03:37
The instrument in question is not a whole step flat but is quite flat none the less and in all registers.It is a G. Rudolf Uebel with no other markings such as HP or LP. It has three rings on top with two rings on the bottom with four rollers. Without the mouthpiece it is 58 cm. long and the barrel is 55 mm. long. It never occured to me that it might be an A instrument. I am also using a Vandoren M13 mouyhpiece on it. If the problem is a lack of a German mouthpiece where would I obtain one of these. Thanks again for everones help.
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2003-09-30 13:17
Sounds like it's a German horn, not an "official" Albert system horn.
I'd try for a German mouthpiece. I'm amazed a non-German one fits in the tenon socket!
Katrina
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Author: Dee
Date: 2003-09-30 23:05
If it the non-German mouthpiece fits the socket, then trying a German system mouthpiece won't work. The tenon is vastly smaller on the true old German system horns.
Confusion arises because the term "German system" has been applied to a variety of clarinets that weren't Boehm system clarinets. The term has been applied to Mueller systems, Albert systems, and Oehler systems and variants of those. The term has been applied to instruments that just had the "German system" keywork but were otherwise like Boehm system as well as those that had the bore and mouthpiece sizing of the German system instruments.
However, it is quite possible that the internal chamber design of typical modern mouthpieces is not as compatible with the horn as it needs to be. This same type of problem also occurs on trying to get some older Boehm system instruments to play in tune as the bore sizes have changed at times.
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Author: Arnold the basset hornist
Date: 2003-10-01 09:59
Hello,
you definitively got a more or less old german instrument.
Unforunaltely at the moment I cannot lookup to figure the years G. Rudolf Uebel made clarinets in Germany.
Well, but I know, the size of the german mouthpieces (tenon, overall length) have changed.
If you find a good instrument maker he can check the bore diameter of a modern german mouthpiece (just at the very end of the socket) against the bore diameter of upper joint (top end). Then (also it might cost as much as one more new mouthpiece aproximately) a new barrel seems to be the best solution (together with modern german mouthpiece). This new barrel has to fit the changed tenon/socket sizes and a new length.
Your instrument should have a letter A on it, when it is an A clarinet, else probably the letter B for a Bb clarinet.
I hope, this informations will help you,
Arnold (the basset hornsit)
Arnold (the basset hornist)
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