 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: calvinc
Date: 2003-09-28 15:39
I've started to play the cadenza portion of the concerto, and could really use some tips on style and writing in some breath rests. it seems that this piece is more like an improvization on style vs. traditional set guidelines. The pages im talking about are pages 2 and 3, for people who have the boosey and hawkes version. and im also wondering about page 7, the start of the jazzy feeling of the piece. Some people from my section argue its sort of like swing. and others say it should be directly played from the piece itself as in, just a steady tempo. If you could help me with these two things, it'd be a great help to me. Thanks so much. =]
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Author: GBK
Date: 2003-09-28 16:04
Listening to a few different recordings is a good way to begin to assimilate some interpretive ideas, as well as to get an overall feeling of style... GBK
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Author: won kim
Date: 2003-09-28 17:31
The topic is always controversal. I have recently talked about this with my teacher. I think the problem with the different interpretation is due to Benny Goodman's recording. Since COPLAND wrote this for BENNY, it is more likely for us to think some spots are need to be swung (i.e. cadenza and the blue section). I personally believe that more people would swing those if Benny Goodman did not make this recording. However, Benny, in his recording, DOES NOT swing at all and just play everything straight. So what do we do?
Well here is my humble opinion... I think the majority of people in the US, based on recordings and articles I have heared and read, believe that we should play it as it is written (maybe with little stylistic improvisation). So I would not actually 'swing' if I play this for audition or competition (unless you are famous and have feedback for the criticism). However, I went to Europe this summer and took some lessons with a European clarinetist. I played this as I played and he said... "it's BORING!" I realized he has a completely different understanding of this piece. I could not agree with many of his ideas because they sounded so strange.
Obviously, you cannot just play it directly. You have to do something to make it interesting. You can follow the majority's opinion as a guideline, but you can also imply your subjective interpretation within the structure. Good luck!
-Won
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Author: theclarinetist
Date: 2003-09-28 17:32
I would highly recommend the Stoltzman version of the Copland Concerto. I've heard a couple other versions, and while all are good, Stoltzman's just has the most "spirit" (if that's what you want to call it). The Benny Goodman recording is interesting also (more from a historical standpoint than a breathtaking performance, though - Goodman seems to have such a small sound... I wonder how much of this was him and how much was the recording technology of the time).
I performed the Copland a few years ago. Despite sounding improvisatory, the cadenza needs to be played with strict attention to all the rhythms and what not. If you take too much liberty, it loses it's structural integrity.
As far as the jazzy part, I've heard it played both swung and straight. Even though I think swinging it is "cooler", playing it completely straight (while contrasting with the jazzy slap-bass accompaniment) can have a sort of funny and sarcastic effect as well... Also, during the jazzy part, there are some rhythms written dotted 8th-16th. While I'm not a musical scholar by any means (and CERTAINLY not an expert on jazz techniques or notation), the fact that Copland would wrote straight 8th and the dotted8th-16th rhythm might indicate that he wants a sharp rhytmic contrast between the two parts (which would be compromised by swinging the straight 8ths).
Pieces like this are super-fun and rewarding to play (and equally to hear for the audience), but make sure you don't get lost in the "fun" too much. Attention to the details is just as important here as it is in any other piece.
Don Hite
theclarinetist@yahoo.com
PS - even if you aren't a Stoltzman fan, I've heard a few people who don't like him at all compliment his Copland. I highly recommend it
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Author: theclarinetist
Date: 2003-09-28 17:47
When I saw Dmitri Ashkenazy play this Concerto, the conductor talked beforehand about how Goodman played the piece very straight because he was "intimidated" by the Concerto (noting that Ashkenazy would not be inhibited by such fears - and he wasn't). From what I understand, Goodman wanted very badly (and was somewhat unconfident about) to become a respected classical player, despite his success in jazz. From listening to the recording, it does sound a little "held back". If he had just let loose, the recording would probably be much more exciting! -- I'm sure this topic has been discussed to death, but I thought I'd just sort of mention it. Anyone with more information (on Goodman's interpretation), please elaborate!
Don Hite
theclarinetist@yahoo.com
While not totally related, did Goodman every record the Hindemith and Milhaud Concertos (or even perform them at all, for that matter)?
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Author: BobD
Date: 2003-09-28 20:06
I think "theclarinetist" hit the nail on the head. Remember that after BG was well established as a pop clarinetist he asked Kell to tutor him, which he reluctantly did. Yes, I think BG wanted to be a respected classical clarinetist but was intimidated. I have no idea what transpired between BG and Copland but could believe that they did not understand each other.
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Author: Renato
Date: 2003-09-28 20:15
IMHO, play it as you feel it. Do it your way, it's the only way. Unless you're after patterns instead of *music*. And you can't ask the source, Mr. Copland, any more.
Listening to other players is very good, but don't overdo the "they said it should be like this - or that" thing. Put your musical sensitivity/sensibility to work! You have a golden opportunity, while respecting the composer's "message", of creating something fresh, alive, anew.
Just my two cents.
Good luck.
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Author: John J. Moses
Date: 2003-09-28 20:35
I performed the Concerto with Aaron Copland conducting for a movie score.
It was done when he was quite old, in the 1980's I believe.
The film was released as "Love and Money." If you get a hold of the video, give it a listen.
I have commented on numerous links on this BB about my performance of the Concerto with Copland. Perhaps you might do a search for more details?
Good luck,
JJM
Légère Artist
Clark W. Fobes Artist
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2003-09-29 13:30
Drucker has a great record in NY with Bernstein on DG. Balances are not quite what they should be but for me this is the Record of choice.
I am going to look of JM's record as well. Or should I say Vid.
David Dow
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Author: Ed
Date: 2003-09-29 14:05
I prefer to hear the eighths played straight. I can't recall if Copland really uses swing in his works. I think that the fact that Copland was the conductor with Benny, it has some weight. Wouldn't Copland have had it swing? I also feel that when I have heard it swung, the fact that the strings are playing straight eighths makes it sound odd.
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2003-09-29 16:41
"Goodman played the piece very straight because he was "intimidated" by the Concerto "
I'm quite sure that if Copland had asked Benny Goodman to swing that section, he wouldn't have had any problem doing it, intimidated or not! I find that most classical players tend to over-swing any music that has any hint of being "jazzy". Some of the "coolest" jazz phrases I've heard were played straight. If some European clarinetist finds the straight 8ths in the Copland concerto boring, this just shows his or her lack of understanding of the style!
I would agree with Don- the fact that Copland wrote alternately straight 8ths and dotted rhythms indicates that he wanted the straight sections to be played straight.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2003-09-29 16:44
Goodman's performance (particularly the first mono one with Copland conducting a small ensemble) is, for me ideal, even if he does show some strain technically. In particular, he "floats" the first entrance with a lovely, light, "popular" feel that seems idea. He plays the cadenza more or less straight, but it still has a swing to it that few others get. Ditto in the finale, which, for me, dies without a jazz feel.
I like the Stoltzman recording, but my favorite (sorry, John, I haven't heard yours) is the one by Bill Blount, who's an excellent jazz as well as classical player.
Mark C. - You're a jazz man. Do you hear the swing in Goodman's recording? Which do you like?
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: diz
Date: 2003-10-01 00:45
Funny, when I studied at London's Guildhall School many years ago, my teacher told me explicitly NOT to listen to recordings of works I was learning so as to get my own approach.
Good example of how a "school of playing" can make everyone play one piece the same (almost without exception) is courtesy of Dorothy Delay and her "way" of playing the Tchaikovsky Violin Concerto.
All of the "super star" violinists (and they are amazingly talented players for sure) who learned from her ALL play this work the same - every nuance, every slide, every martele or spiccato ... I think, personally, this is just plain boring ...
And, before you all blast me for this post ... it is MY opinion and I'm not forcing it on anyone.
Without music, the world would be grey, very grey.
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Author: theclarinetist
Date: 2003-10-01 03:35
Diz,
I understand your viewpoint... however, a responsible musician wouldn't just copy someone else's interpretation... Listening to the work of other players is like doing research.
You wouldn't write a research paper, a speech, or any other form of expression without consulting other sources and the previous works of the "masters" of that field. Simply copying those earlier sources is plaigarism, and is wrong.
Musical plaigarism is equally wrong (in the form of copying people's interpretations), but creating your own interpretation after consulting the work of "experts" is perfectly fine and should be encouraged, in my opinion....
Don Hite
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2003-10-01 12:46
I find Drucker sees the piece in a way clearly different from the norm. His opening is incredible, and the finale has a dash and verve with technical excellence that puts it miles above the rest.
David Dow
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2003-10-01 14:59
diz: I find much merit in what you write. Many on this BB have encouraged Jazz students to listen, listen, listen. Sure, listening for understanding has its importance, but it's much better to play, play, play.
We can discuss what the Copland Concerto should sound like until we are blue in the face, but calvinc's rendition is yet to be heard. I wouldn't expect it to displace Goodman/Copland as my personal favorite, but then, just a phrase or teo exhibiting life and freshness would make it at least a bit memorable.
Play it your way, calvinc. Copland has entrusted it to your expertise as a Clarinetist, the same as it's handed to any other soloist. Don't let him down. Aaron never would have wanted all renditions of his work to sound the same.
Regards,
John
who hasn't heard all of them by a long sho
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