 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: CharmOne
Date: 2003-09-24 19:09
The subject is my question, so comments is all I need. Thanks.
CharmOne
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2003-09-24 19:35
At my certain semi-mature age is not faster than younger. But is just me. Different might be other ones.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2003-09-24 19:42
Dave, we had a similar old saying in Boy Scouts, "The higher the fewer"!! Charm[ing?] One, as said in courtrooms, "please rephrase the question" , if you wish any answers, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Todd W.
Date: 2003-09-24 22:37
CharmOne --
I'll try to provide at least one serious answer to your question.
I think you're asking whether a "mature" person (adult? older teenager?) can learn to play the clarinet more quickly than a child (9 or 10 years old?).
If that is your question, I think the answer is: It depends.
The adult has the benefit of more experience as to how they best learn, they are probably self-motivated (or else why do it?), and they can focus on long-term goals (which may help them get past the immediate frustrations). On the other hand, they may have time constraints that prevent them from practicing regularly or for an optimum time per session, and they may be resistant to doing what the teacher asks them to do. However, if the adult has had other music training (say in music theory; or basic piano lessons), they may be able to concentrate more on the actual mechanics of learning the clarinet and integrate that into the larger picture.
The child who is taking music lessons because their parents want them to, may learn slowly or not at all. And practice habits, even in those who are eager to learn, may take time to develop. However, the child who is excited about learning, and is willing to do the work, may be able to spend more time practicing than an adult can, simply because their life is (not always!) less "cluttered" with other activities and responsibilities. And, I think, most children are used to following directions and doing what the teacher says. So given a competent teacher, the child may progress faster.
As to whether age necessarily affects brain function, I think the jury is still out on that one. There may or may not be an ideal time to learn to play a musical instrument (as there appears to be for language learning), and there may or may not be some decline in learning ability with age, but I don't think we know enough about about brain function or how we learn to answer that.
Hope this gives your some food for thought.
Todd W.
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Author: Sue G
Date: 2003-09-24 23:17
I think that Todd hit the nail on the head with the phrase "self motivated" - the key to sucessful learning of any kind is motivation in my experience.
It doesn't necessarily follow that more mature folk are better motivated but in my case I started to learn the clarinet last year ( I'm over 40 ) and am sticking at far better than I ever did the violin which I played (very badly !!) for some 4 years as a child.
Maybe if I'd been introduced to the clarinet instead of the violin as a child it would have been different - I must admit I do wish now that I had learned to play the clarinet as a child - I'd have had the pleasure of this wonderful instrument for so much longer than I will now.
Sue
:)
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2003-09-25 00:52
Very well said, Todd and Sue, good discussions of the question that was in the original wordage. We semi-humorists should apologise [I do] for our levity, NO sarcasm intended ! Yes, individual motivation, and "peer-contesting" play a big part in success. After playing clar and sax [quite well] for some 40 years, I tried to learn oboe/english horn, but with only a few lessons and little time for "real" practice, I never progressed beyond "just fair", but recall a couple of OK concerts! Luck, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: CharmOne
Date: 2003-09-25 04:46
Maybe I need to elaborate the question as to: At a certain age of 17, 18, or 20; could learn to play at a faster rate (With devotion of learning to play) than a 14 year old or less? Anyway, thank you for the responses
CharmOne
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Author: supernova_khr
Date: 2003-09-25 05:43
My husband started taking flute lessons at the same time my son started clarinet and my daughter started piano. All are quite diligent and motivated. However, my kids have progressed much more rapidly than my husband. My son (14) now plays bass, soprano and e-flat clarinet, and tenor and bass sax. In the local music educators solo and ensemble festival, he received top ratings in solo clarinet, and they also received top ratings in a jazz ensemble where he played sax. My daughter (9) is doing great on the piano, and has added violin to the mix too. All three have weekly lessons and practice at least a little daily (actually my husband practices at least 30 minutes daily). However, the kids clearly have the edge. I wonder if it's like learning a language, in that the brain adapts easier prior to a certain age.
Kay
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Author: BobD
Date: 2003-09-25 12:15
Charm....I do empathise with your difficulty with the english language....
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2003-09-25 12:19
My grammar school teacher would just plotz over that phrase...
******
Perhaps learning facility with musical instruments is much like that of the developing language skill in younger people.
Once the brain reaches a certain level of development, it exhibits a tenacity in holding learned patterns; once in, they are difficult to dislodge.
If all things are equal (and they rarely are such), more practice time over the course of years should result in greater dexterity at a given task.
In short, gray matter is like concrete; you have only so much time to mold it before it sets into a permanent form.
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Author: FrankM
Date: 2003-09-25 12:42
I have rarely seen an adult take up an instument from scratch ( no previous experience) and stick with it. The fact that an adult knows what they want is the problem...by that I mean, a child is happy with each little step of progress they make, while an adult knows what it's "supposed " to sound like, and has a harder time staying motivated through those periods when progress is slow. And who knows....animals and people do exibit critical periods for learning complex behaviors....maybe music is one of them
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Author: javier garcia m
Date: 2003-09-25 15:56
playing faster; I think it's a matter of practice, no age.
On the other hand, age gives you maturity, musicality, better understanding of what really music is.
musicality doesn't equals virtuosistics, I believe.
Learning faster, it's a matter of age, no doubt.
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Author: David Peacham
Date: 2003-09-25 16:09
The question implies that there are two categories of learners: young and mature. I think there are actually three:
(1) young
(2) mature with no previous musical training
(3) mature with previous musical training.
I would expect category (3) to learn faster than (1), on average. Category (2), I have no idea.
I suspect also that all the rules fly out of the window when we consider the small minority of really talented kids: the sort who are giving recitals before their tenth birthday. They probably learn faster than any adult.
-----------
If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.
To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.
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Author: Meri
Date: 2003-09-25 20:26
The subject is rather ambigious. I would think of it as 1) the difference between a child-beginner who is 9 or 10 years old, versus the one who is around 12 years old. Or 2) The adult beginner with prior musical training. (I have not run into 3).
1. The child-beginner. I am finding that the slightly older beginners (those starting as beginners around 11 or 12) seem to do better than those who start around 9 or 10 years old, even when the 11-or-12 year old has had no prior music instruction, and the 9-10 year old has had at least 2 or 3 years of piano lessons. I used to have a somewhat extreme example of the former (he is now studying with my current teacher), who started 1 1/2 years ago as an absolute beginner to music and the clarinet, now is playing Grade 4, and sometimes even Grade 6 Royal Conservatory of Music pieces. He plays with a gorgeous sound (which he really had almost from the very beginning), has fine breath control, and a wonderful sense of musical style. (He just turned 14) It was a bit of a challenge to have him work on his scales and arpeggios, as well as his staccato tonguing (has a beautiful legato one), but now he understands why I had him memorize them. On the other hand, the 9- or 10- year-olds I teach often struggle with embouchure, air use, or hand position for several months. Most of the 9-10 year olds I teach also take private piano lessons, but only 1 of the 11-12 year olds.
2. The adult beginner with prior musical training. I am working with one such student right now. She is an absoulte beginner to the clarinet (had her first lesson this morning!), but has had 6 years of piano lessons and sings in a church choir which the members read from the scores). I think that because adult students can analyse what they are doing, may have an understanding of how to practice, and of course, can often read to some degree, they can learn a lot more than the child beginner, because all they have to figure out is how to play the instrument. The difficulty is keeping the adult student's motivated, but I think the easiest way of doing that is by using a method book that is completely suitable for adult beginners (has lots of tunes adults know), which is why I love using Paul Harvey's The Complete Clarinet Player with adult beginners. I am using this book with one of my other two adult students. (The last is clearly beyond those books) The other adult student who I have using this book told me at his last lesson that he really liked my choice of lesson book!
Meri
"There is a difference between being flat and sounding in tune, and being in tune but sounding flat. The first I can live with; the second I cannot."
Post Edited (2003-09-25 20:31)
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Author: Katrina
Date: 2003-09-25 21:31
FrankM: I have one adult beginner student who has "stuck with it" for two years now. She progresses slowly, but appreciates every improvement she makes. She wants to play in a community band at some point, and she's almost ready. It can happen!
David Peacham: I have two adult students with no former training. One (mentioned above) moves slowly, the other VERY quickly. I think the difference _is_ actually their age. The one who goes slower is older, and the younger one is about 23.
Frankly, I don't think I have ever had an adult with ANY musical training! They've all been rank beginners! Some of them may have had piano lessons as children, but given their descriptions of the "nastiness" of their teachers (pounding fingers into the keys etc.), I hardly think that's anything other than a setback!
I think anyone can learn to play. Speed of learning depends on a combination of several factors, including: physical readiness, mental agility, receptivity to learning, outside stressors (family, school, etc.), AND the student's motivation.
Katrina
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Author: Jeff Forman
Date: 2003-09-26 02:01
I agree with FrankM in that an adult who takes up an instrument has a reason for taking it up and that reason probably has to do with some piece or style of music which he has heard and wants to play. Take me for example. I played bluegrass banjo for 30 years and then took up clarinet 3 years ago with the goal of playing dixieland. My frustration level is high because I know what I want to hear and want to play, and yet I can't do it. (Learning to read music was the first chore!)
A kid, on the other hand, typically takes up an instrument either because the parents have insisted or the school requires it as of the 5th grade for at least 2 years. So their motivation is not as high, but then neither is their frustration level.
That having been said, I have noticed a couple of things both on the banjo and the clarinet. First - 10 year old hands can learn to do things a lot faster than 20, 30 or 40 year old hands. Secondly, their minds are not clogged with mortgages, car payments, making marriage and family work, job pressures, etc. A kid tends to practice (when he or she does so) with a very uncluttered mind and a kid will work on a lick or rift (or scale or thirds exercises, etc.) until he gets it. It seems not to frustrate kids. They either get it or they ultimately give up the instrument and turn to sports, drama, or something else.
So in answer to the original question, I think that a kid learns faster, but a motivated adult has a natural sound or rhythm that arrives quicker. I find adults more limited by technique than kids, but kids less passionate in their sound.
Jeff
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Author: CharmOne
Date: 2003-09-26 06:17
To BobD:
"I do empathise with your difficulty with the english language"
To let you know I am vietnamese and yes I live in the U.S all my life. English may be my difficulty, but somehow I strive harder to get better as I did with my instrument.
CharmOne
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