 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: jez
Date: 2003-09-19 15:47
I've recently been talking to someone influential in designing clarinets for one of the 'big 4' makers. He assures me, in all seriousness, that a new feature offered will be a different metal used for the rings round the barrel. ![[wink]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie3.gif) Now I couldn't detect any difference with this innovation, but he assures me he can.
I'm reminded of being told by someone else promoting a different instrument, a while ago, that having the pillars gold-plated would make all the difference.
What's the silliest idea you could suggest?
I bet one of them will do it one day!
jez
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Author: msloss
Date: 2003-09-19 16:03
Changing the depth of the logo impression on the top and bottom joints to bring out more clearly the characteristics of each brand.
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Author: msloss
Date: 2003-09-19 16:04
No wait, how about lightening the dye used on the wood to brighten the sound?
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2003-09-19 16:25
Jez, Was the ring change being made to have the same temperature-dimensional coefficient as the wood?? Might diminish ring loosening, an improvement perhaps? Caution!, many great inventions were regarded as SILLY in their early days!! Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Mark Pinner
Date: 2003-09-19 21:24
Plating of different types will make a difference to a metal horn like a saxophone or a trombone, generally plated horns play brighter. This is easily explained by the fact that plating is thinner than lacquer so the metal becomes more resonant. Clarinet metal work, on a professional horn, should be nice and solid. This is for durability and holding adjustments as well as feel. The plating type is irrelevant to sound just appearance and feel, nickel keys feel greasier than gold plate. There is some talk about barrell and bell rings having an effect. I play German system which traditionally doesn't have a bell ring, when I put a bell with a ring on my clarinet it just feels heavier but I dont think there is an effect on the sound. I have tried a tuning barrell without rings and I couldn't tell any real difference.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2003-09-19 23:11
Mark Pinner wrote:
> Plating of different types will make a difference to a metal
> horn like a saxophone or a trombone, generally plated horns
> play brighter. This is easily explained by the fact that
> plating is thinner than lacquer so the metal becomes more
> resonant.
It would be nice if it were "easily explained" - but it is not so easily explained.
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Author: jez
Date: 2003-09-20 01:00
Don,
I understood that the change was being made purely to 'darken' the tone-colour and not for the practical reason you suggest. They are using copper rings, silver plated.
One idea which seems to have gone out of fashion is the old Boosey & Hawkes habit of using silver rings which were machined with the wood giving a lovely smooth finish compared to modern rings which are stuck on afterwards.
jez
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-09-20 02:03
"Plating of different types will make a difference.."
Highly debatable!! So is lacquer versus plating. I put this more in the realm of belief than reality.
All evidence that I have ever seen presented has been anecdotal, when there have been hundreds of other parameters involved.
It is the manufacturers who COULD do some relatively controlled testing. I note that they are particularly shy about making definitive statements on these issues. I would suggest that the different finishes on saxes are entirely an issue of marketing options which prove financially beneficial to the manufacturer.
Associated with say the slightly cheaper nickel plating, there is likely to be quite a range of other cost cutting hanging around on the instrument. These other parameters may well indeed affect the way an instrument plays.
For example: This is particularly apparent on nickel plated flutes. From memory I don't think ANY of the many nickel plated flutes I have have the displeasure of playing, have had any attention to under or over-cutting of the embouchure hole. This cutting is a vital issue as far as tone is concerned.
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2003-09-20 12:18
Inset precious stones for bearing points at each pillar...
Then you could specify rubies, sapphires or diamonds at each node, to bring out certain 'overtones'.
One should be careful to select overtones that can't be measured.
That way, only cognoscenti will appreciate the extra cost...
******
As to plating, lacquering, et al...
I thought the top layer was applied to keep the brass from tarnishing.
Which paint will make my Yugo go faster, and sound better?
AMAZING what a difference 3 microns of a coating will do...
Funny how the best players I know have thrashed, ugly horns!
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2003-09-20 13:26
I have been doing some concentrated spectral analysis (frequency and amplitude) with a third generation fast Fourier transform system on a variety of horns to try and tease out just what sound patterns (frequencies) are characteristic of each of the "Big 4" horns in their professional and student incarnations. This of course is not a statistically valid comparison because the number of horns needed per group-cell would be greater than my time and resources permit (and my "chops" after playing a couple hours of long tones) but I have chosen the horns that IMHO think are good horns - and with the help of a high-end tuner, have the best intonation. I hope to present this data as a manuscript and presentation at some future date. Of course the player, OP (oral pharyngeal) cavity, mouthpiece, reed, ligature, recording setup, room, N (number of observations), etc. all play a part in the sound signature analysis of a horn but I have tried to keep these as constant as possible in the observations. This data would not stand up to the regular scientific scrutiny hat I am used to but may be a starting point for further study.
The differences, that I have determined, at least in the spectral signatures are pretty "brand" specific and reside in the number, frequency, and amplitude of the overtones. The spectral patterns are too complex, and algorithms not yet developed (although in progress) to do much more than an overview and point out specific patterns unique to a brand.
The idea of having resonance bodies (gems referred to in a previous post) to enhance certain frequencies is not all that absurd and may be possible if the type of material, resonace qualities, and placement were optimal. Any change - plating type, material composition, etc. may have an effect/ or not -on the spectral frequencies of the sound produced by a horn. I could not detect, within the limit of my sensitivity to discern a significant difference or pattern, any change in the spectral qualities of horns with different plating on the keys within a brand - only one observation relative to this post.
The potential applications of research of this type may include: creating a specialized sound signature for a horn, the ability to determine the change in the sound signature of a horn due to changes in materials, mouthpiece, reed, and ligature. Other implications might include quality control issues in the manufacture of horns, reeds, mouthpieces, ligatures, etc. and others developed by fertile minds such as those on this BB. (Disclaimer - this research is proprietary)
The Doctor
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2003-09-20 13:32
Interesting discussion, fellas [and girls!]. How about just "trashing" a horn? Yes, some friend's saxes and trumpets have NO laquer left! My [early] Mark 6 alto sax has its original laquer, and is therefore ?"more valuable"? , also the ?hand-hammered? brass has a good "tonal" reputation. I like it!!, nevertheless. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: William
Date: 2003-09-20 15:00
While showing (off) one of my old R13 clarinets with it's newly gold plated keys (it was, and still is, beautiful) my old univeristy clarinet professor and one of his current doctorial (DMA) students asked, in all seriousness and with straight faces, if the plating on the keys affected it's sound. Of course, the answer was (and still is) "No", but the visual effect when I am playing is "golden".
And to confirm Don's post, I made the mistake of having my old BA Selmer alto re-laquered as much of the original finish had worn off from years of playng. It's original "silky smooth" sound was gone, replaced by a muffled "hollow" sound that sent me back to the technician wondering if I had picked up the wrong instrument. We pretty much recovered most of it's original lush sound by adjusting the opening of the neck and tweeking some pad heights, but it really was never the same as before the re-laquering was done. Bottom line, if considering redoing the finish on your saxophone for cosmetic reasons: DON'T DO IT! And if you are buying an old saxophone, make certain it has it's original finish--all the glitters is not golden (especially the sound)
(clarinet keys, yes--saxohones--NO)
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2003-09-20 15:42
TKS, Wm, certainly in the "marketplace" originals [autos, cut glass, instruments, antiques etc] are by far the best, but my experience with a [youthful, nostalgic] 1941 Lincoln Zephyr's operability left a lot to be desired, by modern comparison!! On saxes, YEARS ago, I bought an early M 6 tenor sax , pawn shop! for $250, scarred and loose, but played it in dance bands. When elder son started playing it, high school, had it overhauled and re-laCquered over some objection by the tech [a pro saxer] [$400], but appearance was a factor. Seems to still sound out well, after being "opened-up" pad-wise. Its part of #1 son's inheritance!, not to be sold cheap!! Great experiences for an old duffer. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-09-20 22:08
To provide balance to what William wrote:
When a sax is relacquered there are hundreds of other operations carried out on it in the process. It only takes a single, small resultant leak high on the instrument to deaded its response, with the player blaming the lacquer.
Or any one of many other possible changes, even just the 'feel' from altered spring tensions, can easily be mis-conceived in our easily deceived minds as a dulling of the tone.
Many people have had their sax relacqued and been entirely satisfied.
A local top player, a few years ago, spent a whole day demonstrating three very well-adjusted, brand-new Selmer Paris saxes, each with a different finish. At the end of the day he declared that the finish made not a scrap of difference.
There are many different perspectives on this topic, and all evidence seems to be anecdotal. Definitive statements should not be taken too seriously.
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Author: saxlite
Date: 2003-09-20 23:00
Some time ago I had my 1960 MK VI alto overhauled and 18K gold plated. Looks and plays like a dream; I could not detect any change to the sound. Although I now play (and am very satisfied with) a Series III, I'm hangin' on to my good old MK VI.......unless somebody wants to make an offer I can't refuse.....
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2003-09-21 13:19
I was just kidding about the gemstone thing.
Maybe I should call the patent office about every ridiculous, expensive idea that comes off the top of my head?
This kind of approach misses the point of integrated design -
make it BOTH good AND cheap.
*******
This rehashing of what plating, lacquering, mink-fur applique makes for the best enhancement sort of glosses over the fundamentals as stated by Arthur Benade, does it not?
Believe this sort of thing at the peril of your pocketbook...
http://www.musicgroup.com/instruments/FrameBrands.htm?News/Allegro25/NewKeilwerth.htm
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Author: Wes
Date: 2003-09-21 19:23
The other day, I played two vintage saxes I own, both in fine condition, same maker, same model, and same era. One is gold plated and the other is silver plated. The silver plated sax seemed more resonant while the gold plated instrument seemed very good but a little muted by comparison. More fun!
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-09-22 13:48
That could be explained by something as minor as a slightly better fit in the neck tenon of one of them. And do they have identical pads, pad felt, 'resonators'?
That music group URL doesn't mention that there are very few if any professional players' flutes made from nickel silver.
It doesn't mention that Yamaha, after extensive research, has chosen brass for their VERY expensive, and very high quality alto flute.
Hmm!
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Author: KENOLD
Date: 2003-09-23 03:22
My understanding is that nickel silver (aka german silver, aka white brass) is a brass.
Brass is mostly copper and zinc.
White brass is mostly copper, zinc, and nickel.
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Author: donald
Date: 2003-09-23 09:15
.... actually, i'm sure i read somewhere sometime about someone having a saxophone that DID have gemstones (or diamond?) inset in the key pivots to enusure smooth action and limited key wear.... this is a very old and vague memory and it was surely a "one off" beastie for some famous rich jazzer...
donald.....
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-09-23 09:51
An Auckland player and horologist (and collector) did this for his own clarinet. I probably should not name him without permission, but you proably know who I mean.
As far as I recall, he declared it a rather pointless exercise, because it was overkill, and because it is silly when the mountings are on a material as unstable as Grenadian. By comparison, mountings in a wind-up watch are far more stable.
Jewelled bearings are appropriate when the mountings are very secure, very high precision is needed, and there is relatively high force being applied over a relatively small bearing surface - forces which would otherwise resulting in unacceptable wear.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2003-09-23 15:03
We clarinet players are a lot like overweight people. We'll believe, try , buy and discuss anything that promises to improve our condition.....
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2003-09-23 15:43
As BobD said......we're also like non-professional bicyclists who spend thousands of dollars buying bicycles that are a few ounces lighter than much cheaper bikes, rather than riding the damn things more and shaving a few pounds off their buttocks!
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2003-09-23 16:41
Well, I agree with both David and Bob about clarinet players in general and of course practice is the ultimate key to good playing. Too bad that we are so gullible to think that hardware with give us a quantum improvement in our art.
However, --- there is also a lack of objective data or criteria from which to make an informed choice about hardware and we often do not have the time to make an informed judgement about the long term effects of hardware changes on our playing. My own pet dislike is wrapping descriptions in pseudo scientific jargon or making blind comparisons (without supporting comparison data).
Granted that much of how we play and what we hear is subjective in nature and the scientific tools (to a great extent) are now not sensitive enough, the experiments too costly or long, and our knowledge to tease out significant data is limited. But, --- this is changing with increasing knowledge and experimental tools (e.g. computers) with this generation. No longer (in the future) will clarinet players be satisfied with pure subjective assessments, undocumented claims, and "mumbo-jumbo science". Like it or not, the next generation of teachers and performers will know more, be more questioning about claims, and look for real evidence in product claims.
Our job, as I see it, is to dispell the obivious false traditions of past generations, look for -and demand - as much objective data about products as possible, and honor the questions of students as meritorious about our own subjective opinions.
The Doctor
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2003-09-23 17:48
I really can't see how much a difference materials in this discussion.
Posts being made of gold may affect your net worth, but not the intrinsic tone or ability to change the sound so much. Once again, the mouthpiece and oral cavity you possess are the determinant of the sound you will produce.
I find with clarinet mouthpieces my wife and colleagues can't really hear such a difference between a B40 or a Opperman, because I play with my sound no matter what.
How will posts and plating affect playing then?
David Dow
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Author: donald
Date: 2003-09-23 19:23
Gordon- i know who you mean (and why shouldn't you name him?) but i'm pretty sure it was a saxophone, and not in little ol' nz either. It was some present given to a famous guy (by a famous sax maker?)
donald
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