 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: ned
Date: 2003-09-11 06:56
"It's just interesting because I'm doing a mini-thesis on the effects of positive/negative thinking in artists, and one thing I'd like to address is the fact that some artists feel it is their role to be depressed or sad, thus inspiring 'greater' artworks, or, if the world of being artist actually leads to depression. And if this is so, does it inevitably lead to it, or is it a road that those who may be weaker or more easily influenced go down? Is it society's fault, is it no-one's fault?"
This is really the "can of worms" being opened here I feel - nonetheless I have some comments.
I hardly think that some artists actually go out of their way to foster feelings of depression, or deliberately think it it "is their role". So you think that some artists need to encourage depression to become truly artistic/original in the first instance? I think not.
It's probably the other way round in some respects. Many great and original artists have suffered the depressing responses from mediocre audiences that will not not countenance originality and are confronted by it, therefore inducing depression in the performer.
History is littered with the dreadful stories of TRULY original and freethinking performers who suffered at the hands of audiences and critics because these artists were just "before their time" - sorry for the cliche, but you know my meaning.
It's no-one's fault really - it's just human nature to resent change and this includes artistic change as much as any other sort of change.
The situation will not change for the true artist either and THIS is the depressing reality.
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2003-09-11 14:34
John -
The idea/ideal of depressed artist began, I think, with The Anatomy of Melancholy, by Robert Burton, published in 1691. It flowered (or, better, mushroomed) with popularity of Goethe's The Sorrows of Young Werther, published in 1794. Werther is still read , though perhaps less than it used to be, and it inspired innumerable "artistic" young men to affect poses of infinte pain, satirized so beautifully by the writings (and the life) of Oscar Wilde.
I had a good run at both books, but found them nearly unreadable. Burton wrote in an excessively flowery style, in which he takes pages and pages to express a simple thought, and Werther, at least in the translations I've tried, is so relentlessly depressive that I find it either suicide-inducing or silly, according to my mood. There have been LOTS of suicides by Werther wannabes.
On good days, I cultivate my garden and let the rest flow. On bad days, life sucks, then you die.
Playing clarinet helps.
Ken Shaw
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Author: GBK
Date: 2003-09-11 16:04
"If you don't fail now and again, it's a sign you're playing it safe."... Woody Allen
...GBK
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Author: msloss
Date: 2003-09-11 21:04
The sheer volatility of human behavior is what makes art so interesting to create and to observe. Exuberance, depression, and everything in between colors how we play and how we perceive. Music would be pretty dull without the emotional component.
That being said, does anyone get the feeling that thread was a troll? Basically, "LeWhite" kicked the hornet's nest, stood back and watched the show, then came back and talked about the thesis. Kinda sorta shoulda mentioned that up front, aye?
"' I'm the king of the world, I am the greatest, I’m Muhammed Ali, I shook up the world, I am the greatest, I'm king of the world, I'm pretty, I'm pretty, I'm a baaaad man, you heard me I'm a baaad man, Archie Moore fell in four, Liston wanted me more, so since he's so great, I'm a make him fall in eight, I'm a baaad man, I'm king of the world!!!!! I'm 22 years old and ain’t gotta mark on my face, I'm pretty, I easily survived six rounds with that ugly bear, cuz i am the greatest'"
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Author: clarinetwife
Date: 2003-09-13 01:01
msloss wrote:> Oh nuts, what is that stuck to my shoe...
I don't think whatever it is is stuck to your shoe at all! I think that you have gotten stuck to a very interesting phenomenon--the idea of internal versus public talk. I was totally fascinated by Muhammed Ali when I was a kid, precisely because he dared to vocalize his internal talk--why else did it take a rapper to portray him on the big screen? Of course, I was also fascinated because he was so beautiful in the ring.
Musicians, as we all could see from the response to LeWhite's post, don't often do what Ali did verbally. But have I made music with people whose egos got in the way of the music in a more indirect way? You bet!
By the way, I apologize that this is off the track of John Kelly's original line of inquiry, but this whole thing has really got me thinking. Interesting thoughts from lots of people--that is what this board is at its best.
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Author: ned
Date: 2003-09-14 04:03
I don't follow boxing, cockfighting ..........and other bloodsports, but I do recall Muhamed Ali [Cassius Clay as he was, before he found...........] and I don't know if he started the process of verbally intimidating an opponent before he got in the ring, seems like all non-team performing sports personalities do it now actually.
Anyway, my point is, I think MA just did it to psych out his opponent, rather than because of an extreme ego - maybe that came later - perhaps be started to believe his own spin after a while.
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Author: LeWhite
Date: 2003-09-14 11:27
Hey John, just got back from Sydney this afternoon, spent the weekend there. It was my first time there, and I fell in love with it! The Conservatorium is beautiful, I might consider studying postgrad there if I can make the move AND if I can actually get in LOL.
I'm not sure about your initial statement:
"I hardly think that some artists actually go out of their way to foster feelings of depression, or deliberately think it it "is their role". So you think that some artists need to encourage depression to become truly artistic/original in the first instance? I think not."
To your statement, I say "I think not!!"
I speak to a lot of the people around the VCA, since it is a school for music, dance, art, drama etc. etc. so I get so many differing points of view. I've found many of the artists (and by that I mean the people who paint/draw etc.) feel they actually need to look 'alternative', eg. have dreadlocks, shop in second-hand stoes, get piercings, smoke pot and sing around the campfire. You could say this is a stereotypical view, but, some of the artists I've spoken to feel they need to fit this image, whether they need to go out of their way to do it or not.
A lot of the work they produce is a little disturbing, or violent even. At a recent exhibiton, I asked the artist about his work... He told me his best work comes when he's angry, sad, or depressed, and that sometimes he works himself into a state to produce his largest and most expressive works.
This is just ONE anecdotal tale, I'm sure there are just as many perfectly happy artists out there.
I myself find I can play beautiful things when I'm feeling down, and when I'm perfectly fine, working on technique is about all I can do.
There's a LOT to this topic, and I haven't even started my essay yet! I'm not sure what point of view I'm taking, I was hoping to come to my own conclusion by the completion of it, but I think I'm starting to believe that some artists feel they need to fill a role or stereotype.
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Author: clarinetwife
Date: 2003-09-14 12:52
LeWhite wrote:
>
> I've found many of the artists (and
> by that I mean the people who paint/draw etc.) feel they
> actually need to look 'alternative'
>
At a recent exhibiton, I asked the artist about
> his work... He told me his best work comes when he's angry,
> sad, or depressed, and that sometimes he works himself into a
> state to produce his largest and most expressive works.
Hello, LeWhite! I see two very interesting ideas that you are working with. One is public image, how one presents oneself as an artist. The other is internal, the effect of emotion and personality on the creative process. Do the public and the private interact and overlap in some ways?
John Kelly- Muhammed Ali certainly did talk the way he did to psych out the opponent. Was it also part of his process for preparing himself, a weaving of the public and the internal?
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