 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: theclarinetist
Date: 2003-09-06 05:38
I have a question regarding a problem that occurs with many of my students. Many times, their clarinets get so that they will not play Left hand B (on the staff) unless they push down the right hand C key. This isn't a huge problem, but in order to work around it, they have to do "wrong" or inefficient fingerings on some passages. My question is this...
Since this is such a common problem, is there a quick way to fix it? It seems like when they take clarinets with this problem to the shop, they fix it in a matter of minutes. Is there a quick way I could fix this during the lesson, so we wouldn't have to ignore certain passage (or either play them with different fingers, or play them and have the B not speak) until they can run to the shop?
From my experience, it's hard enough to get kids to play the Left hand B without the C key anyway (stupid fingering charts that reinforce bad habits!!), so when every time they play (the malfunctioning clarinet) the fact that they need the C key is reinforced, makes it even harder to teach good fingerings. Since it happens to so many students, I'm assuming it's probably some quirk that occurs in lower quality clarinets that may be easily fixed. Any suggestions?
Don Hite
theclarinetist@yahoo.com
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Author: Mark Pinner
Date: 2003-09-06 08:01
This problem is generally caused by the crows foot going out of adjustment. It is especially common on student instruments with soft keywork. If you hold down the LH E/B key you will find that the F/C pad is not closing, the slightest maladjustment will effect the note with the register key down where it may still be OK below the break to an extent. The LH E/B is coupled to the RH E/B mechanism, the RH E/B mechanism pushes the F/C pad closed via the crows foot. In some cases the crows foot itself bends, in other cases the cork on the crows foot may be defective or of incorrect depth. This is a major problem with cheap clarinets, B12's are amongst the worst!
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2003-09-06 14:22
Congrats ! - You have found that the mid-staff B is the BEST note, with only the left little fingering, for judging if the clarinet is well adjusted !! As an amateur repairer, I'll sure bow to our PRO's comments/opinions, but to me ANY pad leakage will make this note hard [or impossible] to play, even tho other notes may speak, even with effort! Yes, your problem may be the crow's foot, possibly its cork "buffer", but obviously both the E/B and F/C pads MUST close tightly in unison, and the left lever, because of its length, is much more critical than the right L F "touch". So re-seating of one or both of the pads is needed. A mild heating of the first pad to seat [likely the E/B], to give it a deeper seating "ring", may be all that is needed. Possibly a VERY careful/slight bending of a pad cup versus its "touch", in the CORRECT direction, may be required, as Mark P describes. I strongly suggest that either or both of remedies be done by a skillful, cl-playing tech, unless in an emergercy!! HELP, please. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: William
Date: 2003-09-06 14:27
The problem that Mark describes is one that every band director commonly encounters and one that can be usually "home remedied" with a bit of trial and error in bending the crows foot back into proper playing position.
1) Hold the B/E key down and tap on the C/F key. Observe if the crows foot goes down farther and by how much. Bend it upward to correct the excesses gap until none exists. This is best done with a needle nose plier.
2) If the B/E key does not close fully when pressed by itself, but closes when the C/F key is depressed, the crows foot is too high and is holding the B/E key open. The solution is to be bend the CF downward until it allows the B/E pad to seat properly.
A mal adjusted crows foot is nothing to remain "bent out of shape" about as these simple adjustments can be done by practically anyone with minimal manual dextarity. However, if the maladjustment is caused by a missing cork, then replacement should be made before bending. While the bending solution may be done in an emergency without cork replacement, it most likely will result in a clicking key which the cork padding prevents.
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Author: clarinetwife
Date: 2003-09-06 16:19
It doesn't surprise me that those keys get bent. Kids get in a real hurry to put together and take apart their instruments, despite teachers' best efforts to show them how to do it without pressing keys out of adjustment. I also watch the screws for the pinkie keys. On my own horn the screw for the RH set wants to back itself out. I can always tell when it happens because the notes start to get tempermental. I don't like feeling that the RH key is a crutch, though, so I usually take care of it ASAP, whether it's screwing in the screw or having something else adjusted.
By the way, Don, how do you approach middle line B fingering with your students? I do use both hands for that note quite a bit, and was taught a both hands fingering first for the C scale before learning about situations where it makes more sense to leave the C key up. Part of the reason, I'm sure, is because the LH only fingering is so sensitive to subtle adjustment problems.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2003-09-06 18:57
Hi C W - William and Mark are the genuine teachers, I'm just an engineer who has played a lot of cl's, done some semi-pro repairing and studied keying systems for many years. I have done a bit of "teaching" along the way, but lack the special skills that come via formal music training. I often help provide a 2nd or 3rd [generation] cl to a "somewhat" skilled student by playing it for demonstration, and try to get a feel of their "cross-fingering" and "crossing the break" development in the process. Short answer!, I show and make them try the note progression B, C#, D# [and E, F#,G#] to demonstrate the value of the rt hand key, and how the alternate Ab/Eb lever makes planning-ahead simpler. Also to play 76 Tmbs in a variety of keys across the break, [reminding me to practice it also]. HELP, you Teachers!! Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: clarinetwife
Date: 2003-09-06 21:05
76 trombones--I like it. I have used the Can Can in various keys with my students.
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Author: Ray
Date: 2003-09-06 21:32
This is a delicate adjustment and not easy to do well. Very often its not the crow's foot but the height of the E pad or other bent keywork.
Perhaps you should insist that each student get the adjustment professionally done until the parents are tired of paying for it. Then maybe the kids will hear you when you teach them to use cork grease (Doctor's or Selmer Tuning Slide & Cork Grease) and to use proper technique when they are assembling and disassembling.
If you fix their damaged horns for free, on the spot, you will reinforce their bad habits
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Author: theclarinetist
Date: 2003-09-06 23:33
clarinetwife,
I usually let my kids use both keys in lyrical passages or scales where it doesn't really matter. However, in arrpegiated passages or things that are more difficult, I try to stress that adding unnecessary fingers means more room for error.
The main problem is that since many of them are taught as school to put both down all the time, when they're playing a scale with requires B and C# (like A and D), they'll play the B with both, then slide their right pinky from the C to the C# key! AHHH! Actually, I have no problem correcting this, however trying to get them to play it the right way when the note won't come out is pretty hard. You either have to say "well play it the right way and just don't worry about the B until you get it fixed" or you have to switch them to R B and and L C#, which is okay, but I've noticed that younger kids tend the hate the R B because it's harder to play with their small hands. Plus I prefer they play L B and R C#. I was "raised" with the "same hand rule" doing as much with the same hand as possible. Also, as they learn more scales with D#, playing A/D scale with R B, L C# makes them more likely to accidently play D# instead of D.
Don Hite
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Author: clarinetwife
Date: 2003-09-07 01:36
I have found that I tend to introduce those notes and scales before the kids get them in school, so I am able to use a more situational approach from the beginning, Fortunately, I don't get many kids who want to flip the RH pinkie on a D scale!
Interesting idea, Ray, about not making it too easy for them to be careless with their horns
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2003-09-07 14:24
Another thot on this cross-fingering. For my small hands, and those of [some] early students , whose cls I've worked on, I've found that my [and their] rt L F access to the E/B touch is interfered-with by the frequent too-low location of the thumbrest, which causes a downward turn of the right hand, thereby causing finger-tip touching of the F/C touch. My solution is inversion of the TR or/and an adjustable TR, as previously discussed at length here! I suggest this also be considered. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: allencole
Date: 2003-09-07 18:58
Interesing observation by Mark Pinner. B12's are indeed problematic. Adjustment is often so poor on new ones that I recommend that students get used rentals. At least they'll have been through our store's shop.
I also strongly agree with Clarinetwife about the D scale as a solution to the bad habit, and Don Hite beautifully sums up the situation. I share his trepidation about visiting RH B and its associated sequence until kids are already comfortable with using the simpler sequencing employed in their D and A scales.
I feel Ray's sentiment about how kids handle their instruments. It is APPALLING. However, I think that small adjustments made by the teacher are necessary to avoid reinforcing bad technique. Plus, not all repairmen even understand this problem. I had one student put his horn in for service three times in a row and the repairman still didn't get it. (sometime, I'll tell you about the repairman who says he can completely repad a horn in 15 minutes)
I have a two-pronged approach to this situation. First, repair (if necessary):
First, make a temporary fix on the crows foot. I keep sheets of Valentino synthetic cork with peel-off adhesive backing. My favorite thicknesses are 1/32" and 1/64". The sheets come pre-scored in a variety of useful shapes, or the scissors of a keychain swiss army knife can shape it like you want. The tweezers and toothpick from the same swiss army knife can help you properly place the cork without getting your skin oils on the adhesive backing.
If the B key is not pulling the C key all the way closed, I generally put a piece of this stuff on the underside of the RH B key where it makes contact with the crows foot. This can't be considered a permanent repair, but it can be done quickly without bending or removing keys, reseating pads, etc. I don't recommend bending the crows foot, because it's a compromise adjustment and as such can get time-consuming.
The second prong is a simple exercise, the top notes of the D scale slurred. D-C#-B-C#-D. I have students do that before running their D scale so that they'll be used to the finger exchange. If they still feel funny about going for B with left pinkie only, then we'll do the bottom of an A scale. A-B-C#-D-C#-B-A. "Fol-low the yel-low brick road" Or maybe we'll do the Addams Family motif [A-B-C#-D] and snap our fingers a little. The key IMO is to have some sort of a quick reminder that those little fingers can feel before they hit the scale.
Hooray for those folks playing simple songs in different keys. My favorite solution by far!
Allen Cole
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Author: Meri
Date: 2003-09-09 17:48
It depends on the passage. If a B is next to a C, (and E next to an F for the twelfth below) then yes, do that. Learn it with LH for B, RH for C, and vice versa. But if it's any other note (particularly if it's one of those passages that requires R-L or L-R in particular) then do not add the C when playing B.
I can think of a few of the more advanced pieces that require a particular combination, and one early-grade solo piece. I know that there's at least a couple places in Malcolm Arnold's Fantasy for Clarinet that require particular R-L combinations, at least a couple in his Sonatina, the opening of the second movement of Normand Lockwood's Revery and Dance, the cadenza in George Belden's Star Fall, and one or two other places in the same piece, and several places in March of a Marionette. Perhaps excerpt those passages and have your students learn them?
Meri
"There is a difference between being flat and sounding in tune, and being in tune but sounding flat. The first I can live with; the second I cannot."
Post Edited (2003-09-09 17:49)
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Author: Clarinetpunk
Date: 2003-09-11 19:35
I Remember when i was just learning i thought that i needed to have both keys pressed, and i and actually working on that with my student right now as well, and i finally got out of it (as is my students) as i learned my scales, since many of them require to keep the other pinky free.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2003-09-12 17:47
RE: repair-coordination of the E/B and F/C pads' seatings. Like Dan, I tend to disagree with adjustments to the crows-foot beyond the corking [for quieting], since it's silver-soldering may not withstand bendings, and if broken off would cause commotion, I'm sure!! If repadding either or both of the cups doesnt solve the seating problem, I prefer trying corking, then very careful bending of the appropriate pad versus its touch. John B/Gordon NZ et al, where is your skilled advice, please?? Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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