 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: theclarinetist
Date: 2003-09-06 06:04
Always the skeptic, I often wonder why many people swear by certain editions (or publishers, maybe that's a better word) of songs. I can see how this may apply to a piece like the Mozart Concerto on which there are many different versions attempting to match the basset clarinet part as closely as possible, but with most pieces what the big deal?
From my experience, people often change dynamics or articulation as they "artistically" see fit anyway. In fact, I have the Breitkopf edition of the Mozart, which my teacher views at the best and we've change numerous articulations already - not to mention that it doesn't even have any written cadenzas. This isn't a problem, I can make up my own, but you'd think the "definitive" edition of a piece of music would include some well thought out suggestions. I also have the Southern Music edition, and aside from a passage here or there being an octave lower, I see no tangible difference that would justify one as being superior to the other. Also, my teacher urged me to by the "French" virgin of Premiere Rhapsody (Durand, I think), because my Southern Music one apparently wasn't good enough. Well, I couldn't justify paying 20+ dollars for this version when my $7.50 SM one works just fine. I performed the piece and played it quite well (and I highly doubt the mistakes I DID make were caused by my sheet music's country of origin).
I've noticed that most of these "superior" editions are more expensive and from other countries (and are often written entirely in other languages). While this COULD be purely a coincidence, it seems a little like some form of musical Xenocentrism. People often have a tendency to assume that something "made in France" or "made in Italy" is superior (though, oddly the same doesn't apply to China or Taiwan). Is the seemingly widespread preferences towards these "better" editions purely intellectual and objective, or does this xenocentric view play a part in our decision making?
I don't mean to be cynical, but this advice about editions is a little hard to swallow sometimes. I really just don't see the difference in many cases. As I said in previous post, I once knew a college teacher who made my friend get rid of her Festival R-13 because he didn't like how they played (whatever that means). While he's certainly entitled to his opinions (which are probably founded on some evidence he's seen), it's a little hard to shell out cash (whether it be on new clarinets--in my friends case-- or more expensive music that I already own) when I personally don't see the difference. -- I don't want this to turn into a discussion about the quality of Festival clarinets, I just meant that as an example.
As was discussed in my previous posts (of a similar nature), everyone has their opinion as to which song, edition, or whatever is the best. However, when it seems like so many people have a consensus that I just don't see, I think it's a question worth asking.
Don Hite
theclarinetist@yahoo.com
PS - while proofreading this I realized that I referred to songs. I know that clarinet music is a piece, not a song, but I'm too lazy to change it, so please spare me your diction lectures. Thanks = )
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Author: GBK
Date: 2003-09-06 06:20
theclarinetist wrote:
>I have the Breitkopf edition of the Mozart, ... - not to mention that it doesn't even have >any written cadenzas.
There are no cadenzas in the Mozart Concerto.
However, there are a few lovely eingang.
The articulation in the Southern edition (edited by Tournerie) is inconsistant ...GBK
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2003-09-06 07:26
I've seen editions with different notes. The difference I saw was I have a Carl Fischer Edition of Mozart Concerto. And in the third movement, nine bars before section D, my instructor had me change the G4 (I'm hoping I'm using the correct numbers here) to an F4. Then, four bars later, the last 3 sixteenths and eigth note of the next measure by a third. Then the eigth note in the next measure by a third again.
Now I'm not sure why this chage was necessary (although I do agree that it sounds better with the changes.
I think different editions take small liberties with the notes (I've seen different spots where a turnabout would be marked in one edition, but not the other, or something like the above, or where one edition would have a note one half-step away from another, different lengths where a note may be a half note in one edition, and in another it'd be a sixteenth with a sixteenth rest after it), dynamics (self explanatory), and anything else I've forgotten.
I assume the changes would be more evident on older pieces that are no longer copywrited and/or are hard to find an original full score or composition (Mozart, once again fits both). I also don't think it matters so much about the edition, since, although you'll more than likely be following the publishers style, you will undoubtedly end up adding in your style/phrasing as well as making subtle changes to theirs as you play (whether it's your intention or not, it'll show up).
I think what happened to your friend was horrible. I would never EVER make such a change as drastic as the instrument. THe music I can deal with, since that's a lot easier to replace. But I would NEVER get rid of an my clarinet if a professor doesn't like it or tries to convince me that it's bad. If anything, I'd try to get them off my back with a promise that I will change the clarinet "in the future when I can afford to".
On a sidenote, I think it is a bit humourous about those brand name nazi's. Although we only talk about "Buffet" nazi's and the like, they do happen in the real world with ANY brand name. How many times have you heard people swear by a Ford Mustang, or only buy Craftsmen tools, or only use Tide detergent? I don't let it bother me since I know that they're all around us. And I'm one myself. I only eat Chips Ahoy Original Chocolate Chip Cookies. I haven't had ANY other cookie for over 7 years. Cause Chips Ahoy is the best, and if it's not what you're eating, then you are wrong in your ways! ![[wink]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie3.gif)
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Clar inet
Date: 2003-09-06 09:14
perhaps because for the first time i recommended an edition of a piece it could have inspired this lovely complaint you have made. Some of us like to strive in addition to playing with our own style also to play a piece the way it was intended. Publishers like Southern Music are have been edited time and time again so it usually isn't even close to what the composer intended.
Our teachers have reasons for telling us to do things the way they do. Especially if you teacher is a successful musician, it is probably not in your best interests to challenge them.
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2003-09-06 09:50
theclarinetist wrote: "everyone has their opinion as to which song, edition, or whatever is the best."
When you buy an edited edition you buy one persons opinion about a piece.
When you want to form a piece for yourself based on experience and education as well as to devellop a personnal relation to the piece, be sure to always go for an "Urtext" edition. They are not always perfect but they are as close to the truth as one can get.
Alphie
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2003-09-06 13:12
It would be wonderful if we were able to view all of the primary sources of a composition ourselves- eg. autograph scores, composers' corrections and sketches, performance parts, first editions or other editions approved by the composer, etc. Unfortunately this is seldom possible, or at best extremely difficult. However, the next best thing is to buy an edition of the piece where the editor has done all of this.
But then the editor is still faced with various questions and decisions. If there were differences between the autograph score and the first edition, which best represents the composer's intentions? The best editions will include information about all of the sources that have been consulted, and provide a critical commentary as to why certain decisions have been made in the edition. You won't be able to buy that kind fo edition for $7.50!
Don wrote: "but you'd think the "definitive" edition of a piece of music would include some well thought out suggestions. "
This would be far beyond the scope of the edited score. In Mozart's time, certain things were left largely up to the performer to decide (eg. passages of articulation, Eingänge, etc), obviously based on the playing conventions of the time. If you plan to perform any music from the 18th and 19th centuries, then you would do well to spend some time studying the performance practices of that time. Entire books have been written about the appropriate articulation, phrasing, imrovisation, ornamentation in Mozart. These things are also an on-going discussion, and no consensus will probably ever be reached. The best the editor could do would be NOT to impose one possible solution onto the score.
Don- while proof reading, did you also notice your reference to French virgins?? I imagine they would be VERY expensive! :-)
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Author: BobD
Date: 2003-09-06 13:13
I am under the impression that "the Mozart" K622 manuscript is not available. Please correct my impression if it's wrong.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2003-09-06 14:14
BobD wrote:
> I am under the impression that "the Mozart" K622 manuscript is
> not available. Please correct my impression if it's wrong.
You are not wrong; the manuscript has never been found.
The Neue Mozart Ausgabe versions can be found in the Bärenreiter edition; it's the closest thing we have to Urtext right now.
The problems faced by editors, even in the presence of manuscripts, first editions, and more was recently written up in an issue of The Clarinet (it was based on the problems trying to create an Urtext version of a Von Weber piece).
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Author: theclarinetist
Date: 2003-09-06 18:11
Clari net - While your post inspired me to write this, I had already asked this question many times in the past. Also, no disrespect to teachers (who definitely know a heck of a lot more than I do), but I don't just accept everything they tell me without question. I think anytime you accept things without question, you are putting yourself in a vulnerable position (whethere it be something minor like selecting an edition, or something bigger like buying a new clarinet as my friend did).
GKB - while the Mozart doesn't have Cadenzas in the traditional sense, it does have spots where you are supposed to "improvise" a little (or so my precious Breitkopf says). Other editions I've seen have several suggestion for how to play these improvised sections (in the slow mov. in particular).
Liqourice - The $7.50 SMC Premiere Rhapsody has a entire page of commentary by David Hite (people always ask if we're related... I wish). As to "french virgins"? I'll have to read mine again more carefully! = )
Don Hite - theclarinetist@yahoo.com
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2003-09-06 18:40
theclarinetist wrote:
> I think anytime you accept things without question, you are putting >yourself in a vulnerable position (whethere it be something minor like
> selecting an edition, or something bigger like buying a new clarinet as my > friend did).
The selection of a wrong edition can be a more "major" event than you'd think. It could cause you to lose an audition ...
> GKB - while the Mozart doesn't have Cadenzas in the traditional
> sense, it does have spots where you are supposed to "improvise"
> a little (or so my precious Breitkopf says).
It doesn't have cadenzas in any sense - but you should research "eingang".
There's a difference with a distinction.
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2003-09-06 19:51
"I am under the impression that "the Mozart" K622 manuscript is not available."
There is an autograph sketch of the the first two thirds of the first movement. However, this is for basset horn in G with orchestra. At some point, before the first published edition, Mozart presumably changed his mind, and re-wrote the piece for clarinet in A (almost certainly Stadler's "extended" A-clarinet). In the sketch the basset horn part is intact, and is very interesting to study. Certain questions about articulation and phrasing, as well as some notes, can be answered through study of this score. It is printed in faksimile in the complete New Mozart Edition.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2003-09-06 20:26
Liquorice wrote:
> Certain questions about
> articulation and phrasing, as well as some notes, can be
> answered through study of this score.
"Can be reasonably speculated" would be more accurate. We're all still guessing at K.622, though there are a number of educated guesses.
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Author: theclarinetist
Date: 2003-09-06 23:25
Mark,
As far as there being a "cadenza" in the Mozart, call it whatever you want. Everyone knows EXACTLY which passages I'm talking about, and I've heard them referred as cadenzas by many people including some of my past teachers. I'll grant that I'm probably misinformed here, but I'm in good company.
Playing word games is simply counterproductive. Whether or not the improvised sections in the Mozart fall under the umbrella of what is or isn't a cadenza is of little importance to this particular thread, and it's a cheap tactic to pick at something so inconsequential when there is a larger issue I was curious about.
Instead of nit-picking, why not take your time to explain WHY the wrong edition could cost somebody an audition? If it turns out that judges like to hear certain things in certain pieces, that would be a very good reason to buy certain editions.
I personally find it difficult to justify why I should spend extra money for "better" editions, so I ask a question, hoping for clarification. It often seems that such recommendations are the product of musical snobbery, and when my questions (which I mean completely innocently) are answered not with genuine advice, but with more snobbery, it makes it harder to take those people's advice. I realize it's of no consequence to you which edition I have of any piece, but you could at least humor me a little (and as a college student with college student friends, I hear a lot of grumbling about having to shell out extra cash for more expensive music. This thread could actually help many people who wonder about this).
Thanks
Don Hite
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2003-09-06 23:49
theclarinetist wrote:
> As far as there being a "cadenza" in the Mozart, call it
> whatever you want. Everyone knows EXACTLY which passages I'm
> talking about, and I've heard them referred as cadenzas by many
> people including some of my past teachers. I'll grant that I'm
> probably misinformed here, but I'm in good company.
Misinformed is misinformed. It would be a good idea to find out what you're supposed to do given the entrance into an eingang. You don't do the same thing you would if the entrance was given for a cadenza.
It's most emphatically NOT a word game - it is a very precise definition. If you choose to stay ignorant that's OK by me, but it is by no means "snobbery". The definitions of eingang and cadenza (and when to use what) aren't inaccessible to any serious student.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2003-09-07 01:40
theclarinetist wrote:
> Playing word games is simply counterproductive.
Correct terminology in music is of paramount importance. It greatly represents your own knowledge of music, as well indirectly influencing how others assess your musicianship.
Take a few minutes and familiarize yourself with the difference between cadenza and eingang. It is information well worth knowing and not a difficult concept to grasp.
BTW - It was interesting to see that in your first post you made mention that you knew your use of the word "song" was incorrect. Therefore you must view the use of correct terminology hardly to be "word games"(your phrase ) ...GBK
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2003-09-07 02:26
GBK wrote:
> BTW - It was interesting to see that in your first post you
> made mention that you knew your use of the word "song" was
> incorrect. Therefore you must view the use of correct
> terminology hardly to be "word games"(your phrase ) ...GBK
GBK called you on that one. Ooooooo!
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: theclarinetist
Date: 2003-09-07 03:35
Actually, I simply made my correction of the "songs" usage to avoid getting side tracked by word games. Personally, I couldn't care less if someone calls a piece a song or vice versa. If someone calls the Mozart Clarinet Concerto a song, I know which particular musical work they are referring to. However, I was apparently unable to avoid this getting caught up in word games after all.
As I said, I was apparently misinformed as to the nature of the improvisatory passage in the Mozart Clarinet Concerto (and in the spirit of correctness, I probably can't call it a clarinet concerto since it wasn't actually written for regular clarinet), and I am more than happy to admit that I am misinformed. When I post a thread, I am interested in learning things, so I find no shame in improperly using the word cadenza in reference to this particular piece of music. I learned something new. However, my question was not "What is the name of the improvisatory passage in the Mozart Concerto"...
Now that I have admitted by intellectual inferiority, would anyone care to try to address the topic, or is there perhaps a misplaced comma or split infinitive that someone would like to point out instead?
D Hite - theclarinetist@yahoo.com
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Author: Clar inet
Date: 2003-09-07 06:48
The clarinetist -
If you are wanting to get a job someday then you will accept what your teachers tell you with out question.
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2003-09-07 07:44
"If you are wanting to get a job someday then you will accept what your teachers tell you with out question."
I fail to see the logic in that statement. Just because somebody is a "teacher" doesn't mean that they are always right. Looking at another recent post, I see that theclarinetist is himself a teacher.
You can't learn everything from one teacher. I learnt a lot from my teachers, but I also learnt a lot from questioning them. The important thing is the desire to learn.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2003-09-07 08:54
Along with the teacher bit, I've always heard that is very beneficial to have different teachers for the exact reasons stated above. While you don't want to continue switching teachers every month, maybe switch after a year or two. That'll give you a new perspective on things, new methods of learning/studying, new focuses (since some teachers focus more on etudes, some on sightreading, some on drills, some on all three) and is just a good change of pace in general. I would never stick with one teacher all my life. Maybe I'd stick with one until I got the basics of the clarinet, but I'd switch every two years from there. And there are PLENTY of clarinet teachers out there to choose from.
Sorry. Off-topic, but my ontopic response is above.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: theclarinetist
Date: 2003-09-07 16:10
I'm glad this discussion has been so lively (largely due to my somewhat short fuse!) and I appreciate everyone (Mark in particular) for putting up with my idiocy. I realize that I don't know everything, but sometimes it seems discouraging to ask questions and have the aim of the question buried in seemingly petty side issues (I realize that the disinction between the two isn't petty, but its relevance to the actual question seemed so to me - but let's not into it again!), but that's also a good way to learn extra stuff. Anyway, I'm glad this has been kept in "good fun", and I think I was just being a little fiesty yesterday!
Anyway, as to clari net's assertion that you should listen to your teacher if you want to get a job, that's probably the most detrimental philosophy possible, especially for an artist! At the high level most of us are at, teacher's are simply there for artistic guidance, not to completely mold you in their image. How can a musician ever plan to have a creative voice if they are not able to express themselves. I am actually a sociology/anthropology major, however, so I suppose I am in the unique position of not really having to worry about getting a job as a clarinetist, so I may have a little more artistic freedom than most. I would love to work as a professional clarinetist and I will certainly try, but not at the price of my artistic integrity.
This being said, teachers (at colleges in particular) are almost all successful professionals in their field, who have loads of good advice to give, and you should consider all of it. Hastily discarding good advice is just as harmful as hastily accpeting bad advice. For me, the key is to take each piece of advice, compare it to my opinion (which is usually based on some facts or from listening to a variety of recordings, or just on what I think sounds best), then formulate a new approach based on the combination of the two views (depending on their relative validity). Sometimes the teacher's approach is far better than mine, so I'll do his exactly. Sometimes I prefer mine and completely discard his. Most of the time, I sort of take parts of his and parts of mine and create a new way that (in my view) is better than both!
Don Hite - theclarinetist@yahoo.com
PS - considering that I didn't want this getting off track, I've certainly taken quite a detour with this one! = )
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