 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: John O'Janpa
Date: 2003-08-29 13:10
Rain-X placed on windshields causes water droplets to form tiny beads, which then blow away allowing the driver to see through the windshield.
I've been wondering if this might have a similar effect if a clarinet bore were coated with it. (Tiny beads that blow away without accumulating at tone holes?)
I haven't tried it because I'm not sure what the stuff actually is, or what it might do to wood.
Does anyone out there know what Rain-X actually is, and whether or not it would be harmful to wood?
John
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Author: BobD
Date: 2003-08-29 13:26
Don't know,John, but suspect it's a silicone based product.
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Author: hans
Date: 2003-08-29 13:26
John,
It's mostly isopropyl alcohol, if I remember correctly. It might remove the natural oils from the wood, so I would not want to take the risk without some test results that proved it safe. Interesting idea though.
Perhaps the doctor will add some science to the thread with KB numbers, etc. to better estimate the likely effect on grenadilla wood.
Hans
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2003-08-29 16:16
Agreed, Hans, Doc O H, should give us consultation! My quick thot [not being sure re: iC3OH, will check], is thats it is a detergent-surface tension reducer which prevents the "beading" problems. Windshields, yes. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Henry
Date: 2003-08-29 17:00
Hi Don:
I am looking at a fresh bottle of Rain-X. It surely smells like iso-propanol, as Hans suggested. I assume that the active ingredient is a silicone that adsorbs tightly on the glass to reduce its surface tension and thereby sharply reduces wettability by water. The box and bottle refer to US Patent 3,579,540. Since you are an expert on patents, could you look into the make-up of this stuff? I tried the US Patent Office site but I have no experience and I could not get the text of the patent.
I share the belief that the isopropanol base could damage the wood or remove the bore oil. It may be great on windshields but a poor choice for clarinets. But it is worth looking into. Perhaps some silicone could be incorporated in, say, the Doc's bore oil to combine the best of both worlds! (Doc, if you read this, why don't you try it? I won't insist on a consulting fee!)
Henry
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2003-08-29 18:33
I have just looked up the patent and it is a mineral acid (providing a low pH) for a silianation reaction where the active ingredient is polysiloane at a concentration of 5 -25% in an organic diluent ( isopropyl alcohol). So what is all this chemistry double-speak -- basically, on certain surfaces it will form a hydrophobic (water hating) surface polymer of silicone which is not just a sheet of silicone or silicone droplets, but a bonded polymer much like some of the new car waxes which sheet and disperse water. It forms a water impermeable surface. I have not tried RainX on Grenadilla wood. The micro-beading or sheeting action of the polymer surface only works well on extremely smooth surfaces - like glass. Our wood bores, although they may look pretty smooth, are actually quite rough if viewed under a microscope - with hills, valleys, and deep wells (pores) and the desired sheeting of water may not occur.
(Disclaimer - I sell a plant derived bore oil and other wood treatments) My views on the wood, and oiling and waterproofing wood have been much discussed. I do not believe in waterproofing the wood with a surface treatment or oil (like linseed oil) that polymerizes to form a waterproof barrier on the wood.
The wood in clarinets is impregnated with a plant derived mixture of oils prior to manufacturing processes to aid in machining and also adds to the stability of the wood. My thoughts are that the stability of the wood is enhanced if it is allowed to maintain a moisture balance due to the hydrophilic nature of the plant derived oil. I believe that the wood should be allowed to "breathe" and take up, and displace moisture to the extent allowed by the density of the wood, the buffering effects of the plant derived oil, and environmental conditions. A wood mass that is replete with oil and is allowed to evenly absorb or exclude water is much more desirable, IMHO, than trying to exclude all moisture with a surface treatment that will never be fully complete and will wear off in time presenting the potential of increased absorption of water in those areas in direct connection with dry areas that exclude moisture. This situation leads to the potential for structural deformation and possible failure (cracking) in these areas. Environmental challenges (very high or very low Relative Humidity), in my opinion, are also better tolerated by an active water transpiration system that can adjust and accommodate different conditions.
Wood that is replete with oil will bead water in the bore. Making smaller water beads may be desirable, sheeting of the water might also be desirable but in the end the water must collect, flow, and leave the horn by gravity or some convenient channel. Again, I have not investigated these possibilities. Excluding all moisture by waterproofing the bore will not change the amount of water that condenses (it may actually increase it) in the bore. There is not enough air force to "blow away" even small droplets of water.
RainX may be a help to keywork to prevent corrosion and tarnish as already posted.
The Doctor
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2003-08-29 18:40
This has turned into quite a research project, at least for me, but I have learned some things about both Rain X and its competition AND patent searching! Following up, making a search, via Henry's pat # [TKS] US 3,579,540 [1971, too early for USPTO simple retrieval, special program needed!] AND windshield, several pats in which the # was cited, were found. Of them US 5,889,086 described Ohlhausen's pat. composition as an alkylpolysiloxane [a "silicone"], sulfuric acid and a solvent, isopropanol [iC3H7OH] is likely. I also found from a Rain X search, that a recall had been ordered for a similar? product based on its containing methanol, CH3OH, a poison, as we all should know!! So, the guesses on comp. were good. I'll describe my "search path" if anyone wishes. 'Nuff for now? Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2003-08-29 18:55
Well done, Doc, isn't it interesting what cooperation can produce? Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2003-08-29 19:52
Don - you are a fantastic source of experience and information - yes, cooperation is the source of added knowledge and understanding. I have been doing a lot of patent searching for a new project and have become, to the extent that the system is very complicated, better at doing it with the aid of some great software.
The acid conditions for the RainX brand of silianation and use of an alcohol diluent is probably not good for wood surfaces.
I was just thinking that one of the polymer water sheeting car waxes (with no residual dust) might be an aid to plastic horns (RainX with the alcohol probably is not the thing to use unless a different diluent system were developed - hmm?) - not withsanding the same accumulation of total water (one might need a diaper in front of the chair instead of a swab after playing).
The Doctor
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Author: hans
Date: 2003-08-29 20:49
It's interesting that a Rain-X type product based on methanol was recalled because it is highly toxic, since that is what is used in ordinary windshield washer fluid. Methanol is also corrosive to metal so it would be prudent to keep it away from our clarinets.
Hans
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Author: John O'Janpa
Date: 2003-08-29 22:40
Thanks guys,
This bboard is great for getting logical, and useful responses to technical questions relating to clarinets. Sounds like not using Rain-X on grenadilla was
the right choice.
John
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Author: CPW
Date: 2003-08-30 00:05
We need a prospective randomized double-blind study:
a statistically significant # of clarinets divided into
1. RainX treated cohort
2.No treatment
3.Standard care with plant derived oils
Wake me in twenty years and tell me which works the best.
For now...I am with THE Doctor.
edited for grammar...and granpa too
Against the windmills of my mind
The jousting pole splinters
Post Edited (2003-08-30 00:06)
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2003-08-30 13:52
CPW, Doc - Back in the dark ages, we spoke of and set up "designed experiments" to solve PROBLEMS, real and anticipated, many of which led to invention and patents, some worth their weight in Au and Pt. So I suggest y'all consider, if you derive a solution which seems to be different, locating skilled help and investigating the economic possibilities. Of course, "All generalizations are false including this one!!" Tks for kind words, Doc, et al, just trying to help. Good conclusion J O' J. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2003-08-30 21:09
Sounds like CPW is writing for the New England Journal of Med (the nice era before Relman became editor and ruined it)
Seems a bit overdone....just get any ol hunk of clar and experiment with a barrel or a joint....Hey experimenting with joints...now that really sounds like a medical experiment.
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