 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: moose6589
Date: 2003-08-22 15:43
Just wondering, what do you think of this idea? An electronic barrel that also acts as a tuner. When you play any note, it listens for the pitch and automatically adjusts the dimensions of the barrel until every note is perfectly in pitch? Is that even possible? I just thought about this, and it seems an interesting, albeit far-fetched idea. Sure would be cool. What do you think about this? Maybe someday clarinetists will have perfect pitch. Who knows?
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Author: theclarinetist
Date: 2003-08-22 16:36
Might be a good idea for long, extended melodic phrases. A few problems though...
How could it respond to fast passages?
How could you bend the pitch (if you wanted to)?
What if you are tuning to someone else who isn't in tune (relative to 440 or whatever)?
There is always a risk of becoming overly reliant on electronics, or crutches of any kind. Having the ability to listen and adjust pitch on your own is a valuable skill that could become compromised if we are relying on a barrel to do the work for us?
Also, I think anytime you take humanness out of a process, it becomes less expressive, less "unique". If you start with a self-tuning clarinet, why not make a clarinet that blows itself and always uses the perfect airstream, then you could make a clarinet that blows and plays itself, so it has flawless technique, then what would we do? With virtual orchestras and the like creeping up on performers, this sort of stuff could be a slippery-slope that's a little to risky for most of us...
Now, on a less conspiracy-theorizing note, it might be a nice feature for correct tuning problems inherent in an certain brand or model of clarinet...
It could have a benefit or two, but I personally (I and would venture most others as well) like to be in control of all aspects of my playing (even if that means risking imperfection).
Just my thoughts! = )
Don Hite
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Author: William
Date: 2003-08-22 16:42
One problem is that the performance of music is never "perfectly" in tune. It requires constant listening and adjusting to the pitch inperfections of others and for harmonic variences that occur naturally between the "just" (natures ratios) and "tempered" (piano tuning necessity) sytems that are constantly "in play" as we play. A device making every note on the clarinet "perfectly" in tune would result in the clarinetist sounding out of tune as pitch levels change in the ensemble--as they always do. Even if every other instrument and voice had a pitch perfect regulator, the ratios in progressions from one tonality to another would sound out of tune to the listener. Even the most accurately tuned piano ("Well Tempered Clavier") is inheriantly out of tune with itself because of the tempering that must be done to make all of the notes relate uniformly to each other. So I think I will take a pass on such a device and simply continue listening and coping with those violinsts and sopranos that "can't keep the pitch."
(Nice idea, however)
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2003-08-22 19:32
VELLY INTERESTING ! Don and Wm ask the same type questions of practicability [sp?] and "reduction to practice" that I have asked many actual and would-be inventors in 20 years of patent promotion and prior art searching, Ah Memories!! Moose, for your protection of a "potentially patentable idea", I suggest that you "write it up" immediately in as much detail as you can conceive, with any ideas on how it could be achieved equipment-wise, sign and date it, get an "understanding" friend [like one of us!] to read it, and sign/date it under "Read and Understood by:", [its beyond just "Witnessed By"]. Then it becomes provably yours!! Out of a would-be lawyer's "abundance of curiousity", I'll make you a quickie, non-comprehensive patent search {US only, as usually sufficient for USPTO} based on the above info, if only to see if anyone else has patented a similar "wild idea". Of course, if anything serious comes from this, be sure to find a patent attorney, NOT just one of these "patent-promotion mills" as on TV, they will just take a lot of your money for little real help! The reason I go on and on here, is that many of us may easily have good, patentable ideas that can easily be lost in a shuffle. My knowledge of patent practice is old, but prob. still correct, legalities change even more slowly than "musicalities" . Luck, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Mark Pinner
Date: 2003-08-22 23:07
Why not dispense with all other organic factors such as the reed, they are nothing but trouble, and go completely digital. May as well dispense with the player also as they may actually attempt some musical feeling, they are also nothing but trouble and how dare they have any emotive input. May as well just program the internet refridgerator to play clarinet music for us and we could set it remotely via our mobile phones to have a perfect digital rendition of any piece of music playing as we walk in the door past our home delivered groceries that the fridge has ordered for us, intuitively of course, whilst waiting for our internet microwave oven to heat up our dinner which of course we have requested be ready exactly 7 1/2 minutes after we arrive through the door. The digital cork screw has of course opened the digitally perfect wine, they have dispensed with wine makers because of their tendency to make wine with personality which again does not fit in with the technology age.
This is of course intended as irony, a comedic tool. We have reached such a stage that technology has become so ridiculously meaningless. The whole art form of western music is based around actual people actually playing and creating actual music with all of its intricacies.
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Author: moose6589
Date: 2003-08-23 02:49
Wow hehe you guys really put thought into this eh? This is on a much deeper level than I was thinking. Well, let's put some more controversy into the argument. What if, instead of making every pitch perfect, you have a barrel that just makes a certain range of notes perhaps a bit sharper or a bit flatter. Like, perhaps one adjustment would be for the lower chalameau, one for higher chalameau, one for lower clarion, and so forth. It wouldn't even need to be electronic. Just a tuning barrel that can tune more than just the general pitch. That would certainly be interesting. My clarinet tends to have a low-pitched chalumeau, so maybe I could just tweak that part a bit, and it would be more in tune, albeit not perfectly. Just like a click barrel, except much more useful. I'm sure there's a way to do this. I just have no idea how .
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Author: Alseg
Date: 2003-08-23 03:25
That might make doing a glissando rather difficult....just a thought.
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Author: Wes
Date: 2003-08-23 03:31
There was a guitar tuner that supposedly turned the pegs of the guitar to do a tuning function in response to the error signal from a comparison of the string pitch to a standard pitch. It sounds like a lot of impractical fun.
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Author: harpovitovandoren
Date: 2003-08-26 08:28
I used to think I knew alot about the clarinet until I discovered this site! I suppose that as far as digital tricks go we are only hearing the tip of the iceberg. Here in my mechanical stoneage I've often wondered about jeweled bearings for the keys - has anyone done any work along these lines? Thanx, John Whittington
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Author: Tim P
Date: 2003-08-26 19:45
suppose........just for discussion purposes and in answer to Mark's opposition to digital (since this is a PERFORMANCE art)....
---we can agree that todays clarinet looks nothing at all like the first ones. but we have learned to accept the improvements that have been made. maybe as keys were added there was a group of "hard core" clarinetist that said "those new things are not really clarinets.
---and per Mark and others we believe that we want to keep the human element in the performance and keep the digital out. after all it is the performance that we want. We don't want to see Tiger Woods go up to the tee with a digital fired cannon and get a hole in one do we???
--- but with my "invention" we can have both. I submit a barrel that changes dimensions by a small electrical powered servo motor. The control of which is a small toggle like switch located next to the right hand thumb rest. the artist could "tweak" the barrel at any time and could exercise "interpertive" judgement as she/he saw fit. for the purist we could maybe have a air filled bladder (filled with lung power) store air pressure and use that to drive the motor. We could look to our bagpipe cousins for some techincal advice.
--- hey Don Berger should we talk about this?? LOL chuckle chuckle
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2003-08-26 20:42
YES, this is where invention-innovation starts, more often than not with a [seemingly] "crazy" idea. We all believe in SLOW, DELIBERATE "progress", and are "encumbered" by practicality. How many years did it take before clarinets had 6 or 7 rings to help us in fingerings? Happily, the US Patent Office [usually] doesn't require a working model any more, just a good design shown and discussed. So, work it out, record it, then consider employing skilled help to file an application. Much Luck, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: allencole
Date: 2003-08-27 05:45
Beware of devices which think for you. I bought a SLR camera years ago that automatically read the 35mm film cans and adjusted its ISO. But I found that that if I wanted to push film, I couldn't get the camera to cooperate. I ended up having to learn the system of encoding the ISO on film cans and modify them with alarm tape. The problem could've been easily solved by buying a cheaper, more manual camera.
Ditto for automatic devices on wind instruments.
Allen Cole
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2003-08-29 18:18
The idea of this is totally against the grain of the "Art" of playing an instrument...surely the player should
" know"? when they are out of tune and be tought how to adjust by any intelligent teacher?
Hence, the North American obcession with gadgets and artifice...
David Dow
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2003-08-29 18:24
D Dow wrote:
> Hence, the North American obcession with gadgets and
> artifice...
I'll have to guess that you've not been to Europe or Asia, then???
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2003-08-29 18:26
D Dow wrote:
> The idea of this is totally against the grain of the "Art" of
> playing an instrument...
Instruments are a means ot an end, not the end unto themselves. Perhaps you play a clarinet with no keys?
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Author: ron b
Date: 2003-08-30 05:47
We've come a long way, baby....
Your last response just reminded me of something, Mark;
There was a Depression Era sax, a real one actually, not a toy, that had no keys (or, maybe only one or two - I'm not real sure). Obviously, low production costs and economical maintenance was the prime motivator for its existence.
The mouthpiece looked like a soprano sized one, in my estimation. It was a cute little thing, small enough to enable the player to cover its tone holes with fingers only. I suppose it was limited somewhat to certain key signatures and I have no idea what its tone quality might be. The instrument I saw, quite a while ago I must add, was in a glass paneled showcase. In my imagination though, playing one of those could've been a lot of fun. Doesn't take much to amuse me, as some Sneezers may(sigh) already know.
I find ocarinas pretty facinating too
We've got a long way to go, baby....
- r![[cool]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/cool.gif) n b -
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Author: ron b
Date: 2003-09-01 06:20
What would pass... an Ocarina ??? hahahahaha
Probably not; looks too much like a sawed-off bassoon
- ron b -
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Author: LeWhite
Date: 2003-09-01 11:53
I like the idea in general so far... But my addition would be:
There is a + / - key next to the RH thumb.
Pressing this raises or lowers the pitch, by sending a signal (Infrared, bluetooth?) wirelessly, to the barrell, which obeys your command. This way, you're still listening, the performance is still there, but you can adjust without taking your clarinet away from your mouth, frowning, everyone seeing that you're out of tune (rather than hearing it).
What do you think?
Oh, and maybe the barrell could make phone calls too? And connect to the net, so you could ask advice on ww.org WHILE PERFORMING?
"Guys, I've got a horrible high C coming up, what do I do? I have about 30 seconds..."
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Author: wyatt
Date: 2003-09-01 14:15
i would rather have a barrel that could change a Bb into a C, or an A. that could be a real market.u
bob gardner}ÜJ
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2003-09-01 17:49
Perhaps this is a new tread but thought that I would ask anyway. Acoustical design is not my forte so any help would be appreciated. A band director friend asked me if there was some barrel design that would make his clarinets sound louder in the mix on the field (marching band). I know that this is a common problem.
What barrel taper would you use? Would a barrel made of metal - e.g. aluminum, brass, bronze - have more "ring" and sound louder?
The Doctor
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Author: ron b
Date: 2003-09-01 18:40
How 'bout makin' the whole clarinet out of me t . . . .
(huh?) - - - - - - -
oh, someone already tried that?
well, okay... i was happy for a moment anyway.... :\
- rb -
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