 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: Barry
Date: 1999-11-01 23:00
Is it possible to cultivate a correct classical sound using a double-lip embouchure? My teacher doesn't like the notion. He likes to see a bite mark on top of the mouthpiece, and says I should grip the mouthpiece very hard to blow altissimo notes correctly.But I recently read Keith Stein's "The Art of Clarinet Playing," in which he advocates double-lipping as a means of combating tension and the "jaw-bite habit." I tried the method, liked the sound and found it a very agreeable way of playing. Before I convert definitively, does anyone have any thoughts about the relative merits of single-lip and double-lip embouchures?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Mark Charette
Date: 1999-11-01 23:18
Barry,
many famous players used double lip at one time or another in their careers.
Your teacher's telling you to "bite down" for altissimo notes is exactly opposite what all teachers I know teach their students. Are you sure that's what he/she was saying?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Dee
Date: 1999-11-01 23:37
Mark Charette wrote:
-------------------------------
Barry,
many famous players used double lip at one time or another in their careers.
Your teacher's telling you to "bite down" for altissimo notes is exactly opposite what all teachers I know teach their students. Are you sure that's what he/she was saying?
-------------------------------
I agree with Mark. You shouldn't ever "bite". The embouchure of course needs to be firm and well developed but biting encourages pinching which in turn leads to a shrill sound in the altissimo and a thin sound in the clarion notes.
Whenever I suspect that I am starting to bite or pinch, I'll use double lip as a remedial exercise. My teeth are a bit sharp to use it all the time.
Double lip has a long and honorable history. It takes more time to develop and thus many consider it more difficult to learn and master. The clarinet will feel unstable until this embouchure is well developed. A major advantage though is that it is impossible to bite or pinch as it will *hurt*. Thus the embouchure is "self correcting" in this regard.
The single lip seems to be more common by a wide margin. For many people, it seems to be easier to develop and the clarinet feels stable even from the beginning. The drawback is that it is not "self-correcting" when it comes to biting or pinching. Unless a person pays special attention to the embouchure development, it is easy to fall into these bad habits.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Nick Conenr
Date: 1999-11-02 01:00
I agree with the previous comments. Actually, I picked it up not to long ago when I ran into problems with biting. The goal of the embouchure is to be firm, but not too loose or tight. The bite marks your instructor wants to see are probably a bad thing. Having a too tight embouchure has many drawbacks. For one, it does mess up tone quality in the higher registers. Two, it can interfere with tonguing, becuase it can cause you to strain on fast passages. It also affects endurance. It can lead to jaw pain (I struggled with that for a while), or other physical problems. Sometimes, it can encourage a clarinetist to use your throat, which is a big no-no, because it has problems of its own. Anyways, yes double lip is a self-correcting embouchure, at least in my opinion. I have learned to play in a manner that doesn't hurt, and I use it whenever there is something significantly wrong with my technique on single lip. After a while, I switch back and the problem is usually at least somewhat better. I hope I helped.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: HIROSHI
Date: 1999-11-02 04:55
The teacher should know Stolzman 'uses' double lip embouchure. It is not an old way of playing. You can find many postings in Klarinet archive.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: HIROSHI
Date: 1999-11-02 05:18
I think a little teeth position difference is inevitable. In short the plane consisting of lower teeth and upper teeth is rather more orthogonal for single lip embouchure than for double lip embouchure.
You can read Keith Stein's book where on mouthpiece to put upper teeth and lower teeth. 10mm upper and 17mm lower.
I do not think it is possible to keep this upper teeth position using upper lip rolled in. Maybe, the instrument should be held bell higher. Just like this i thought while reading Stein's book many years ago.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Barry
Date: 1999-11-02 08:12
Many thanks for all your advice. My instructor does not like to see any slack on the clarinet at all, and says that you should actually hold the instrument with your teeth, while avoiding pinching. It is, of course, very painful to get this degree of firmness with double-lip embouchure, but one compensates I believe by pushing the clarinet upwards with the lower thumb. It's curious that you say I'm being taught the opposite to what is taught elsewhere. I'm taking lessons in Paris, and I wonder if this has something to do with the very tight and controlled sound that a lot of French clarinetists have. For example, my instructor does not like the Stolzman sound at all. The ideal would be the legato sound of Jacques Lancelot, who influenced a lot of clarinetists here. My instructor is a retired conservatory professor and a superb professional musician with an absolutely divine sound. So it is hard to disagree with him, particularly as I have only been playing the classical clarinet for a couple of years (I used to play jazz, and always used double-lip embouchure then) and he has more than 50 years of experience.But it seems to me that the way one forms an embouchure is quite personal, and I think that on this question I'll go my own way. Hence the reason for my question: Can you get a good classical sound with double-lip? Incidentally, to show that I haven't misunderstood the instruction "tenir ferme le bec" with the top teeth, I notice that my prof's mouthpiece has a deep ridge on top. Nevertheless, his sound is very sweet and fluid. Ah, the complexities of this instrument!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Graham Elliott
Date: 1999-11-02 17:28
I don't think you need to change "definitively" in order to give it a go, as long as you give the idea a good run for its money.
But if so, you will need to change teacher as he will not take kindly to your following the advice of a bulletin board instead of his advice.
Beware the idea that it makes a better sound. It may do, but you cannot judge yourself, since the damping introduced by the upper lip disguises certain aspects of the sound from you. Ask a friend (or the professor if you dare) whether they hear the difference that you perceive.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: John Scorgie
Date: 1999-11-02 18:04
You asked whether it is possible to produce a "correct classical sound" with double lip. If you check "Sherman Friedland's Corner" on this website, you will find several articles where Sherman discusses double lip embouchure and lists several players who produced exquisite classical sound with double lip.
When I read your question in conjunction with your mention that you played jazz clarinet for many years double lip, I have to surmise that you are having trouble achieving a more "controlled" sound, now that you are studying classical playing. In order to do so while maintaining your double lip embouchure, you may wish to work on channeling your airstream in a more controlled manner than you are used to from jazz type playing. A good vocal coach can help you here (on the clarinet, not on your singing) because the fine singers have to develop great flexibility and versatility in shaping vowel quality and placement of the voice, and the good vocal coaches know how to teach these skills. (My vocal terminology is not the best).
Your teacher, in addition to biting down on the mpce, probably also plays with a lower lip tightly drawn into a "smile". This was the way many of the older players achieved a bright controlled sound of excellent quality.
Your double lip embouchure is at the other end of the spectrum from your teacher's style of playing. Why not seek out another teacher, one who plays double lip successfully?
Paris should be the best place in the world to find such players.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: HIROSHI
Date: 1999-11-02 21:18
Barry
I like Jacque Lancelot(His instrument old is Buffet Crampont RC Prestige and his reed is Glotin,his mouthpiece is 2RV(my guess))
I would stick to your teacher's order(not advice) since he has a connfidence what he teaches. Maybe, double lip or single lip is good for people with some exact conditions.
N'est pas?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Barry
Date: 1999-11-02 21:31
Hiroshi,
You are exactly right. Buffet-Crampon RC, Vandoren 5RV and Glotin 3. What a good ear! I love the Lancelot sound, too.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: HIROSHI
Date: 1999-11-03 03:45
Barry,
And I like Guarde Republicane that he used to be a member of. I really envy your environment to be able to hear them quite often ordinarily.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: John Kelly - Australia
Date: 1999-11-04 04:29
I have been using a double embouchure for about 5 years now. I changed over from single lip because it was simply more comfortable.
I play jazz too and the style demands a broad tone and volume to cut through two brass players and a rhythm section. At first I had problems with control but this has been worked on just by practice really and now I have no problems in playing a 3 hour gig using a #4 Rico reed and a JB5 mouthpiece.
So if you think you want to change your embouchure, my advice it to at least try. I can't comment on the effect on a 'classical' tone of course, but I don't think there was any noticeable change to my own particular tone.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
