 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Keil
Date: 2003-08-10 23:57
Today while watching Hollywood obsessed TV I was hit with a question, well not really a question but more of a social comment that left me somewhat bitter. At what point does an artist become a star? and at that point does their art become cheapened by its mass appeal? Does popular culture contribute to the value of that which society deems as "high art"?
I think it's a shame that say Richard Stoltzman doesn't carry the same popular clout as say Britney Spears. I would love to walk into a mall and see Richard getting mobbed for his autograph and seeing a " True Hollywood Story" done on him!
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Author: CPW
Date: 2003-08-11 00:55
Well here is a thought....
Andy Warhol was not a national celebrity until he began hosting parties....then he became "famous for being famous"
So let us all get together and hire some celebs to attend a party in a decadent setting and have our most favored clarinetists "host" it.
In fact....here is another thought:
If you HAD to spend time at a party hosted by a clarinetist...who would you pick??
Categories:
1. Living classical artists
2. Living jazz/pop/crossover clar. (I would include Stoltzman in this category, and accept the flak that it will generate)
3.deceased or retired classiques
4. oh, u kno the drill....Benny etc.
READY... SET...GO
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2003-08-11 01:04
You have got to be kidding.
If you want to be a STAR, you need to sell what 12 year old girls want.
(Or what 12 year old girls are lead to want, but that's another story.)
I just sat through a screening of 'The Two Towers' and my row was populated by fans of Orlando Bloom. Every time that lissome Elf trotted across the screen, they practically squealed.
No wonder Johnny Depp moved to France.
If the producers of popular culture thought for a minute the Stoltzman could move more tankers of your favorite fizzy water, or sell perfume, he would be a juggernaut.
Go ask the guys that didn't get Keith Lockhart's job what it's all about...
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Author: CPW
Date: 2003-08-11 02:10
FWIW: Yo Yo MA sells computers on TV.
Anyone who dares mention Kenny G gets his/her ligature busted.
Picture it...Larry Combs on Home shopping network selling...whatever.
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Author: theclarinetist
Date: 2003-08-11 06:31
At the risk of sounding like at elitist, I hate the fact that pop artists refer to themselves as artists... There are certainly a handful of popular artists that are very talented, but for the most part they are just mediocre singers, dancers who sing mass-produced songs. In fact, for most of them, it seems they're looking and advertising potential carries them much farther than any talent they claim to have. As a musician who has put a lot of study and effort into my "art", I think having an American Idol star liken what they do to what we do is sort of sad.
On the flip side, imagine what would happen if musicians were superstars... They're concerts would be sponsored by huge corporations that care more about endorsing their own product than creating quality music. They would also end up selling out and playing jingles for commercials and stuff... Even though classical musicians don't get a 10th of the credit they deserve, I think it's better that way. The music can stay honest...
Don Hite
PS - The sooner clarinetists become celebrities, the sooner they can become "celebrities gone bad"... Imagine Sabine Meyer on trial from shoplifting from Barney's....
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Author: Mark Pinner
Date: 2003-08-11 13:23
I saw Sabine play and I can tell you she doesn't look like the kind of woman that would even go into a shop called Barney's. What the hell is Barney's.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2003-08-11 13:40
Mark Pinner wrote:
> What the hell is Barney's.
If you don't know then why would you think that Sabine wouldn't go near the place?
It's one of the finer (and very expensive) apparel shops in NY City ...
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Author: theclarinetist
Date: 2003-08-11 15:01
Mark Pinner,
That's the store Winona Ryder got caught shoplifting in. I was just joking about how most celebrities eventually fall from grace at some point, and celebrity clarinetists would be no different (jokes are never funny when you have to explain them, so don't worry about it)....
Don Hite - theclarinetist@yahoo.com
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Author: Rick Williams
Date: 2003-08-11 17:12
Manufactured stardom doesn't strike me as either particularly new or significant in the scheme of things. The first pop/rock group that I can personally recall being manufactured was the Monkeys. Since then how many teen pop stars and groups have there been? You could probably even make the arguement that Mozart was a "managed star." His father ran him all over Europe promoting him, advised him to write simpler music that would be "easier" to listen to and more pleasing to the audiance. Now Mozart had the talent to back it up, but still the promotion was endless and definately selfserving. Was Mozart a sellout?
In the art world, watching some of the things that go on, such as Andy Warhol and others, that it looks like a huge inside joke that people agree to play along with as a sophisicated form of "I'm hip enough to understand that this is a put on." There is the painter who hires people to paint his pictures, which he then signs and sells for mega-bucks. The purchasers know he didn't paint it but it doesn't matter.
I've sat in classes and seminars where someone tried to convince me that a piece of mud thrown against a canvas was art. I didn't buy it, I also didn't buy the jacket cover on Iron Butterfly which claimed that their musical genius would be enduring. But the album was still ok. So is someone like Spears a greater talent than say Stoltzman based on sales and popular appeal? Does it even matter? The simple fact is that Spears connects with a whole lot of kids, who shell out money and I doubt that any of them every asks how her musical talent stacks up against someone else.
I have to wonder if back in the 1800's while Beethoven was premiering the 9th, if there was a really popular bawdy song making the rounds of the bars and if more people couldn't whistle or hum that tune? Let's face it, if talent, success and stardom were really linked, what would Hollywood do?
RW
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Author: David Spiegelthal ★2017
Date: 2003-08-11 17:15
I suspect that stardom (as a concept, or a lifestyle) is highly overrated. I just wish that the majority of good REAL musicians could make a living wage and support their families on their musical incomes --- the hell with being rich and/or famous, I only want to be able to keep a roof over my kids' heads. Leave stardom to the narcissists and the insecure mediocrities, I say..........
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Author: GBK
Date: 2003-08-11 17:23
15:00 ... 14:59 ... 14:58 ... 14:57 ... 14:56 ....
...GBK
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Author: msloss
Date: 2003-08-11 20:09
Depends on what you consider the masses. Do we not make "oohs" and "aahs" over the prowess and talent of Larry Combs, Greg Smith, Ricardo Morales, etc.? Do we not scrutinize every detail of what they do, how they play, the gear they use, etc.? These people are at the peak of their craft and have celebrity status within the circle that cares about such things. Their prominance doesn't automatically cheapen their art.
Stardom appears to overwhelm or cheapen talent at the point where the artist serves his own image before his art. That's a problem unless you are (were) Warhol in which case his image was his art. Plenty of truly talented artists out there that managed to walk the tightrope between art and fame without cheapening what they did. I wouldn't include Britney on that list -- she is image without art; a product for the moment.
... 14:55 ... 14:54 ...
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2003-08-11 21:06
Stardom does not just happen, in a moment of glory. It is nurtured and developed by insinuation into public consciousness. Quincy Jones had primed the pump before he set Michael Jackson out moonwalking down MTV alley. Remember when MTV actually played Music Videos?
Stardom is, most definitely, evanescent and the glare of the spotlight hastens this process.
The ones to watch are canny, if not the most accomplished, musicians.
Yo-yo Ma is a great example of a hard-working, genuinely nice guy of limited gifts that has reached out to an adoring audience.
Just go to a Tangelwood event and listen while he gives a sermon... you could hear a pin drop in The Shed.
For my part, I go to hear the Cool supporting cast he is lucky (and wise) enough to gather 'round for the fun of it.
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Author: Henry
Date: 2003-08-11 21:32
Botch: Anything wrong with Yo-Yo Ma? Seriously! Although I am by no means an expert, I thought he was a pretty darn good cellist and a "star" in the good sense of the word. In what way are his gifts limited, other than that noone is perfect. If anything, IMHO, his charm adds to the liveliness of his performances and should not be held against him.
Henry
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Author: CPW
Date: 2003-08-11 22:25
A Class Act....same as Wynton Marsalis.
Charisma helps
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2003-08-12 00:14
Don't get me wrong, I own several of YYMs discs, and particularly like his crossover stuff (Soul of the Tango, for instance).
I'm suggesting he makes more of his charisma than his playing.
Listen to Pablo Casal, Mistislav Rostropovich or David Finkel for real 'fire in the belly' playing. I think the genius in successful crossover careers is in choosing the right projects with players you admire; and showcasing each player's strengths.
I more inclined to think players are serious when they compose music, across genre, to include instruments other than those they play.
I paid serious money and drove 6.5 hours round trip to hear YYM, so you could call me a casual fan.
Would I have gone that far if Pacquito D' Rivera and the Assad brothers were not included on the bill? Perhaps not...
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Author: CPW
Date: 2003-08-12 01:27
The following is an editorial comment and meant as satire or cynicism.
msloss stated:
"I wouldn't include Britney on that list -- she is image without art; a product for the moment."
to which I reply tongue embedded in buccal space
When it comes to stardom, her ascenscion proves that....."nothing beats a great pair of legs."
(sorry in advance if I get edited for that one....I just couldnt resist)
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