 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: theclarinetist
Date: 2003-08-06 04:58
Sort of a question, and also just looking for opinions. I currenly play on a Chedville Mouthpiece with V12 4.1/2s. I'm happy with my sound and I have a great deal of control over my playing (sound wise), but I have to work quite hard to do it on a reed that large. I once had a teacher tell me that the "a good clarinetist shouldn't need anything harder than a 3.5" and that "a clarinetist should be efficient enough to only need a reed that hard"... To me this seems like a stupid thing to say, considering how everyone (and their mouthpiece) is different... I do, however, agree that I put a lot of energy and effort into playing 4.5s, and think I could be more efficient (from an energy expenditure standpoint) on slightly softer reeds (probably a 4 or 3.5).
I've tried playing on 4s recently, and the sound is always thin and overly bright and I can't keep my fingers and my tongue together during fast passages. In addition, the pitch is much less stable. I assume this is simply because I'm used to playing on the harder reeds, so I apply the same effort to the softer reeds. I've made a few attempts to try to get used to slightly softer reeds, but I usually just give up after a few days.
My question is, since I'm happy with my sound and playing on the harder reeds, should I not worry about it and just deal with the large amount of effort it requires... or is there an advantage to using the softer reeds (I would assume greater stamina and possibly greater flexibility with sound, when played properly... but what do I know?)? If so, is there any good techniques to help me get used to the softer reeds (I love the mouthpiece, so I'm not looking to change it - I would consider a different ligature though - I currently use an older Rovner my current teacher gave me)? Just looking for some opinions to see if it's even worth the effort to look into it...
Don Hite - theclarinetist@yahoo.com
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2003-08-06 06:50
Try a new ligature perhaps. After my very recent experience (you can read about it labeled Francois Louis Ligature) I realized the right ligature can help to add or relieve resistance to your playing.
Also, when you play a softer reed, barely squeeze at all with your lips. It should be to the point that the lips are just barely keeping the mouthpiece from falling out of your mouth. Try double lip embouchre with a softer reed and try to get it so you barely feel your teeth on your upper lip. This helps me because I play a "medium" reed on a very closed mouthpiece that has a recommendation of 4.5 - 5.
alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: moose6589
Date: 2003-08-06 09:04
Well heck, how to play a softer reed eh? I suppose that you just need to get used to it is all. Your tone should be quite bad from what it was before, but if you're really intent on doing it, just keep playing that thing until you get used to it. And relax your lips more, as sfalexi said. However, I think you should never play a reed with toooo much resistance, no matter what the sound. It's just makes life harder. When you spend less effort while blowing, everything will relax, and you can play more naturally without constantly trying to make that log vibrate! However, a little resistance is still nice though, you shouldn't use something with no resistance, quite a bit harder to control.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2003-08-06 14:17
Not everyone can handle "stiff" reeds. My experience is: you start out with a soft reed(say a #2) because you have no embochure to speak of and you squeak a lot. As your embochure strengthens you move up to a 2 1/2 and you squeak less. Then you try a 3 and find that it tires you out and takes your attention off of other factors but you don't squeak. Everyone tells you that only sissies continue to play 2 1/2s and you believe them. You keep trying to play a 3 with ease but finally give up. You play 2 1/2s with ease and no squeaks but you know you are a failure.....haha.
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Author: Silvite
Date: 2003-08-06 15:40
there is an advantage
less thinking about tightening and getting the note right and more playing with ease. after u master that , u can go to read 5 if u want to.
i myself switch between 2 1/2 and 31/2
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MY Jean Baptiste clarinet went on ebay for $150!!
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2003-08-06 16:06
A few Mitchell Lurie #4 reeds in my drawer are used now and then just to remind myself that I absolutely do not like playing on a reed that stiff. My preference is never softer than a 2, never harder than a 3, usually either 2 or 2½.
Softer reeds offer greater pitch flexibility. I like that. I am not accustomed to stiffer reeds and do not play as well with them.
My mouthpieces are selected to match the reeds I prefer, not the other way around.
Regards,
John
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2003-08-06 16:42
Me too, Silvite, "I've become accustomed to soft reeds" [as in M F L!], for sop cls , 2-3 and "Med", for bass cl 1 1/2- 2 1/2, for clear tones for throat and below, seldom play higher than clarion G. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: ken
Date: 2003-08-06 16:46
…too much prognostication and not enough common sense and musical instinct; just use the reed brand and strength that meets your playing demands and you feel most comfortable with.
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Author: Silvite
Date: 2003-08-06 16:54
u do lose tone in softer reeds, try a 1 ½. sometimes most confortable is good to a certain degree, because of tone quality.
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MY Jean Baptiste clarinet went on ebay for $150!!
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2003-08-06 19:07
Quote:
…too much prognostication and not enough common sense and musical instinct; just use the reed brand and strength that meets your playing demands and you feel most comfortable with. Excellent. That's one for the books. I find nothing wrong with experimenting with different reeds, brands, strengths, but don't choose a reed BASED on it's strength or brand. Just the one that meets your playing demands.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: theclarinetist
Date: 2003-08-06 21:08
Don't worry, I've been playing long enough to not get caught up on the notion playing a certain strength or a certain brand just for the heck of it. While the very hard reeds do meet my sound needs (I actually make a very lovely sound on them, or so I think anyway). However, I think if I could learn to make that same sound and have the same stability on a softer reed (which would make playing easier and increase my endurance) I certainly think it's worth a try.
Don Hite
PS - As I've moved up to harder reeds, I've experienced reverse discrimination. When younger, we are usually made to think that playing soft reeds means you're bad or a baby and harder reeds mean you're better... Now people assume that I bite or have a messed up embouchure because I use hard reeds, and that if I were "a better, more effecient player" I'd play softer ones... I guess you're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't! Of course, when you're practically strapping a popsicle stick to you're mouthpiece, it's normal to expect a few stares = )
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Author: Mark Pinner
Date: 2003-08-06 23:04
I usually play on the softest reeds the mouthpiece will handle. There are some strange concepts being spread out there. My experience is that if you are playing full time or at least 20 hours per week your endurance, and projection for that matter, suffer if your reeds are too hard. If you are somebody that spends the majority of time practicing and rehearsing then you can get away with harder reeds. Currently I am using a Yamaha Custom 6CM with Rico Royal 3 for doubling and V12 3 for straight clarinet work. Alto sax is a Beechler Diamond inlay small chamber 7 with Hemke or Rico Royal 2 and on tenor a Meyer 6 with 2 1/2 Rico Royal or 2 1/2 Hemke. If I am playing a lot of tenor I can go down to a number 2, V16 preferably, even on a relatively close mouthpiece. I can play harder strengths with no problem but I find the softter reeds help with endurance and projection. I know of legit clarinettists who use 2 or 2 1/2 reeds.
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Author: Silvite
Date: 2003-08-06 23:30
i know a couple of great players that play on 2 ½ traditional. and an exceptionaly great tenor player who abused a #2 rico and school plastic mouthpiece!
he had the most amazing sound on a #2
i use harder reeds mostly when looking for the clarinet tone at its highest lvl.
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MY Jean Baptiste clarinet went on ebay for $150!!
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Author: Aussie Nick
Date: 2003-08-07 01:05
I just got a Chadash barrel yesterday for my Eb, and I'm amazed at how much better in tune the instrument plays now, and also I don't find it to be as resistant as before, therefore less effort. You should look into this
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Author: coasten1
Date: 2003-08-07 03:43
I read another message since I found this group a week ago that stated what you hear and what someone else hears are different. Maybe to you the softer reed may sound bad, but have someone else that knows how a clarinet is supposed to sound listen to you play on both reeds. You may sound better to another ear on the softer reed.
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Author: graham
Date: 2003-08-07 08:12
The other question is how much stamina do you have with 4.5 reeds? What if you had to play four hours of wind octet music, would the control still be there at the end? That is the point behind the efficiency thing. If you can keep going the way you are set up now, then that is fine, otherwise it is worth investigating the alternative. Why not try a strength 3.5 in something other than a V12?
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Author: CJB
Date: 2003-08-07 12:27
Way back I had a similar experience with my teacher. I was finding that the only way I could get the tone I wanted on the stock mouthpiece that came with my Yamaha 34II was by using Vandoren strength 4 reeds. During a lesson when I was having more reed problems than usual my teacher told me that I should use nothing stronger than a 2.5 which she insisted on selling to me and throwing away the reed I'd been playing on. My reaction - continued on the 4s and made sure if she asked I told her they were 2.5s.
If only someone had explained to me then that that mouthpiece was best employed as a door stop, I'd have saved myself so many problems.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2003-08-07 13:15
CJB wrote:
> If only someone had explained to me then that that mouthpiece
> was best employed as a door stop, I'd have saved myself so many
> problems.
All the new student Yamahas I've seen come stock with a Yamaha mouthpiece that isn't a door stop (the plastic 4C mouthpiece). This is a fine beginner's mouthpiece.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2003-08-07 15:21
RITE you are, Mark, my Yam 4C is as good as my several "bests" . Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Silvite
Date: 2003-08-07 15:29
i would like to know though, how do ppl like my teacher get such an awesome sound from a school sax,mouthpiece, and a 2 reed!
i cant stop smiling when i hear him play
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MY Jean Baptiste clarinet went on ebay for $150!!
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Author: CJB
Date: 2003-08-07 16:17
MarK C.
Agree 100% with the NEW 4C mouthpieces - I'm refering to an experience I had over 15 years ago, when I was taking my Gd 8 exam. I've been told that the stock mouthpieces have been improved significantly since then.
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Author: theclarinetist
Date: 2003-08-07 16:30
I suppose my endurance depends on what I'm playing. I played an hour long recital and did fine endurance wise, but obviously I had short rests between the songs and during intermission. I got a little fatigued during the Castelnuovo-Tedesco Sonata, but it was managable (the clarinet plays almost the entire time though, so I hardly had time to catch a breath, much less rest my embouchure). I never have trouble playing long concerts or anything either. The only time my endurance is an issue is if I'm playing something with hardly any rests at all (like a duet or trio). After about 15 minutes of playing constantly (with no more than a measure's rest here are there) I get pretty tired, although it only takes me a minute or so to recover. I don't really know if that is "acceptable" endurance, or if I have the potential for much more stamina. How is everyone's endurance?
Don Hite
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Author: bobmester
Date: 2003-08-07 17:45
I guess it is safe to come out of the closet.....
I also play on 2 or 2 1/2.
Glad to get that off my chest.
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Author: selmerfudd1
Date: 2003-08-07 18:28
A new or different ligature probably would help.....you might try custom sanding your reeds as well.Im lucky if i get one out of the box thats responds well.Experiment with reed and ligature placement as well.... .001 or more of an inch makes a big difference in response.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2003-08-07 19:22
RE: Endurance, Don H says it well. Soft reeds are helpful for us older [80+] cl'ists. Everyone has his/hers problems, mine [now, in comm. band] is a 24 bar bass cl SOLO in "Hi Hat" [jazz/blues, Yoder]. Not difficult, it needs some "augmentation"!, so I plan on a bit of "name that tune" game. The phrasing and volume [wind], finger "tiring", vision [early MD] and standing does wear me down, so playing the later syncopated rhythms and other numbers is a minor? challenge. Hang in there, you seniors! Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: C. Hogue
Date: 2003-08-07 20:49
I too was brought up in the school that soft reeds were for babies. In high school, I was vexed that I couldn't progress past strength 3. (If only I'd been told then to get a new mouthpiece! My first mp was a no-name doorstop.)
But then I saw Maynard Ferguson's band in a workshop. I asked the sax player, a guy who played some seriously hot licks, what kind and strength of reed he used. He pulled off his ligature and looked.
"A Rico 1-1/2," he said. "I get a new one out for every concert."
That disabused me of the notion that I had to play on a hard reed. I play on what works for me.
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Author: graham
Date: 2003-08-08 08:11
That level of endurance sounds pretty reasonable Don, and it is clear that you don't have an issue with failure to match others in this respect. Plenty of people do, and I opt for a reed that takes relatively little lip pressure as it allows me to keep going when a number of other people stop. That said, I play on strength 4 Zondas on a tip opening of c. 1mm, which produces a medium blowing resistance and lowish lip pressure requirements. It could well be that your mouthpiece/reed interface gives you a similar situation, in which case I suggest you stick with what you are doing at the moment.
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Author: theclarinetist
Date: 2003-08-08 15:08
Just wanted to thank everybody for the helpful responses... The past couple days I've been playing on Vandoren 4s (which seems considerably softer than the 4.5s... but maybe I just got a "soft one" out of the box). I've found that after a few practice sessions I've been able to adjust my embouchure slightly to make the tone more pleasant and to be less "pinched" sounding. Also, as another poster suggested, it's possible that the tone is fine, but I'm just not used to it yet. I have noticed that when doing my technical practice (Klose Scales, Thirds, Chords, 7th Chords, Dim 7th Chords, and Chromatic) I can play longer than on the 4.5s.
The only problem I've encountered is that music that requires a lot of quick register Changes (examples: Cadenza from Copland Concerto, Many etudes from the Artistic Studies from the German School book) is much harder to play. I also noticed that when playing descending octaves, the lower note is always very difficult to get without tonguing (where as I could easily slur it on the harder reed). All of those problems may change though as I practice more.
In conclusion, I think that it may be possible for me to switch to the softer reeds, because I do noticed some advantages over the harder reeds. There are however some disadvantages (at the moment). As far as effort goes, the physical effort saved by the softer reeds is cool, but I think I'm using an equal amount of mental effort to keep my embouchure loose enough to keep the tone pleasant and the high notes speaking... As I said, the "cons" of the soft reeds may likely go away with more practice... Ultimately, I haven't made a final decision as to which strength I think will work best, but everyone's suggestions have been very helpful... I'll try to keep you posted (hopefully my experience can help other people who are in a similar situation)...
Thanks
Don Hite - theclarinetist@yahoo.com
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Author: Carol Dutcher
Date: 2003-08-08 18:45
I too am a closet 2-1/2 reed user. When reading the postings I think, "Gee maybe I should be using a 3 or a 3-1/2 by now." But the 2-1/2 works fine for me, so I don't change. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
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Author: Brenda
Date: 2003-08-08 19:40
After reading through the posts for a couple of days now I'm being reminded of what I read (and have experienced lately) in Keith Stein's "The Art of Clarinet Playing". In the section about remedial techniques he discusses double-lipping (pgs 46-48). I've been told by a new teacher to use this technique to improve my tone. Having been self-taught nobody ever told me how to hold an embouchure before. This simple (and at first quite painful) adjustment has helped a whole range of issues including sqeaking reeds and a painful jaw from working so hard! I use it for the first 5 to 10 minutes of practice just to remind the face muscles of what's required of them.
Keith Stein explains that the double-lipping will: 1) cure the habit of whacking your keys too hard, because your lip won't tolerate it 2) properly make the entire embouchure work, developing the weaker upper lip muscles 3) support the reed/mouthpiece well from all directions, etc. etc. He recommends trying this for awhile and reverting to single-lipping, since the muscles will have been trained to work, and they continue working even when playing the easier way, that you don't have to use this method exclusively.
As soon as you mentioned being able to play better with a strong reed and still having the feeling of straining to play it, that comment made me think that perhaps some work with double-lipping PLUS using a softer reed would do the trick for you. Then the softer reed would have a nicely supported sound while you enjoy working less for it.
Post Edited (2003-08-08 22:22)
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Author: snjshipley
Date: 2003-08-08 21:18
Many thanks to all those who made comments that it is OK to use softer reeds like #2-#3. I use reed strengths in that range exclusively, and pleased with the tone and flexibility......and EASE OF BLOWING.
My style of playing is almost totally dixieland/swing/pop.
I privately contacted another person who made a post and was assured I shouldn't strive to get harder and harder reeds, but going too soft can be a problem too, like #1.
I have a 5jb mp (#2 strength) that I occasionally use, although I prefer other less-open mps. Vandoren recommends #1 1/2 to #2 for the 5jb. USERS of the 5jb ............ what reed strength do you use ?
Another Soft-Reed-Closet-User
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2003-08-08 21:33
For those who may feel embarrassed to have colleagues know what they're really playing: Take out your Fibracell Soft, examine it carefully, and mutter "four and a half" a couple of times while sticking it in your mouth. Then studiously suck on it, moving it around a bit while you assemble your Clarinet. After the "reed" is properly fitted to the mouthpiece, blow some notes tentatively, then finally play a few at good volume.
Likely, everyone around will consider you to be right up there with those who think they know what to do. They would not understand that you truly are.
ALWAYS CARRY A SPARE. Otherwise, if your lone item ever goes sour, some helpful person may actually hand you a #4½ reed, and you are doomed.
If ever you are found out, and you are asked what did that "four and a half" mean, just say you were thinking of your nephew little Elmo's shoe size.
Regards,
John
who acceprs no responsibility if you are tarred and feathered or otherwise whomped
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Author: Bob Schwab
Date: 2003-08-08 22:48
For what it's worth, I remember the owner of the music store I frequent (a professional clarinet and sax player) telling me that Pete Fountain plays a 2.5. What breath control you must have to play a reed that soft and still keep your intonation.
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Author: Bill
Date: 2005-12-31 20:59
Mark Pinner wrote:
"I usually play on the softest reeds the mouthpiece will handle. There are some strange concepts being spread out there. My experience is that if you are playing full time or at least 20 hours per week your endurance, and projection for that matter, suffer if your reeds are too hard. ... I can play harder strengths with no problem but I find the softer reeds help with endurance and projection. I know of legit clarinettists who use 2 or 2 1/2 reeds."
This remark has been in my head ever since I read it, and I think it is the best piece of advice I've encountered in years. The "softness" of the reed has to do with its interface with the mouthpiece, but I find it true that, given an acceptable tone, finding the most responsive reed gives the best playing experience and extends expression significantly.
Thanks for posting it Mark!
Bill.
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-12-31 22:09
Don't any of you on here find that if you play on reeds the same thickness as floorboards, the bottom register suffers and the general sound is thick and dull?
I know if a reed is too hard for me when the bottom register has no definition (loss of overtones) and certain notes hiss - like B with the forked fingering, C#, Eb, side F# and the throat notes sound stuffy. I only use a Vandoren 2.5 on a 5RV Lyre, but since the tip opening and facing are completely different on the M15 that I've changed to, I do need a stronger reed, but only a 3.5 Rue Lepic which is around the same strength as a regular Vandoren 3.
And on bass clarinet, attacking the upper regiater F and F# is dicey with too hard a reed - I only use Vandoren Java 2 on bass.
Former oboe finisher
Howarth of London
1998 - 2010
The opinions I express are my own.
Post Edited (2005-12-31 22:09)
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Author: Scotti
Date: 2005-12-31 22:28
What's most important to me is not how the low register sounds, because that will always sound good. What's most important to me is how freely I can play over the registers and what type of reed will allow me to make the least amount of changes (in embouchure and tongue position) in various registers. While I have gone up and down in strengths over the years, the reeds I choose always have the resiliency to take what I give them and maintain the sound at all dynamic levels and registers.
Be careful that what you think you're hearing in the low register, as in "overtones" is not just a spready sound. The clarinet sound can be spread, but it won't necessarily sound bad to the ear in the low register. Then you get into the throat and upper registers and have all sorts of problems. That area (low register) of the clarinet should be the least of anyone's concern.
Scott
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Author: Chris P
Date: 2005-12-31 22:39
But you do want a clear sound in the low register, and as clear as it is in the upper register, so getting the right reed is important.
Personally I like a strong full sound in the low register with a certain amount of reediness/brightness when played at a good mf level, and the upper register to be fairly round, but not hollow.
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