 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: willieted
Date: 2003-08-04 02:21
What is considered a good maximum speed for tongueing ...
4 sixteenth notes
6 sixteenth notes
8 sixteenth notes
>8 sixtenth notes
for a good high school student or good college student. For this discussion I guess I'm considering single tongueing the same note (as to not introduce the problem of tongue-finger coordination.)
I've been working on increasing my speed and I've noticed a difference between tongueing 4 sixteenth notes and 8 sixteenth notes - 150bpm vs 130bpm. It decreases to about 116 when I try 12.
I guess I'm trying to determine a goal. Also how can I increase stamina such that the tongue isn't tired (and sluggish) when tongueing a string f notes in sucession. I know I'll never be a Stanley Drucker, but I would like to improve in this area.
Ted
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Author: DAVE
Date: 2003-08-04 02:57
Why not let REAL music dictate the speeds you should strive for?
For instance:
Mozart Concerto-120bpm
Mendelsohn Scherzo-88 to 92
Mendelsohn Scotish Symphony--126
Bartered Bride Overture--144-152( I don't know how people tongue ALL the
notes)
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Author: Richard
Date: 2003-08-04 03:09
willieted;
Can you clarify a little? By 150bpm do you mean tonguing at a rate of 150 sixteenth notes per minute?
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2003-08-04 03:27
I think they mean 150 quarter notes per minute and they are tonguing sixteenths. BTW, I'd definitely introduce different notes since, while tonguing the same note fast is great and all, most pieces of work I've seen/heard would require tonguing and finger coordination. So while 150bpm would be fine on a single note, what happens when something is written in 120bpm with tongued sixteenth runs, thirds, and other combinations?
So I'd work on the coordination aspect as well.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: willieted
Date: 2003-08-04 03:52
Thanks for the responses so far.
By 150bpm, I mean setting the metronome at 150bpm and then tongueing 4 sixteenth notes in a beat ... Normally I will tongue 2 eighth notes followed by fouth sixteenth notes, followed by a half note. Then I repeat the pattern on the next note of the scale.
If I try a pattern that contains 8 sixteenth notes at this speed, then the tongues tires and slows down before the end of the second beat ... and the metronome leaves me behind.
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Author: Richard
Date: 2003-08-04 04:42
willieted;
Thanks for the clarification. I’d say that’s fast tonguing.
The best advice I’ve heard, and it seems to be universal, is to play at the fastest speed at which you can play without making mistakes. It seems that when you play too fast and keeping making the same mistakes you’re just reinforcing those mistakes making them harder to correct later on.
When you play at a comfortable speed without mistakes what you’re doing is training your so-called muscle memory. Once that’s accomplished you can safely increase your ‘comfort’ speed.
Sfalexi gives some good advice on this point. Instead of the same note, I practice scales, arpeggios and thirds for speed. By the way, my ‘comfort’ speed for sixteenth notes is MM=84 (on a good day).
Best wishes
Post Edited (2003-08-04 04:44)
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Author: moose6589
Date: 2003-08-04 06:01
Hmm well yes I believe everyone's tongue gets tired after a whole bunch of sixteenth notes. The more notes you tongue in succession, the slower and more sluggish the tongue becomes. As such, I don't believe that tonguing 2 eighth notes followed by 4 sixteenth notes is practical in measuring tongue speed. This is because you really can't lag behind that much when there are only two beats, and only one beat requires fast tonguing. Your tongue could be falling behind by perhaps as much as 20 bpm, and you really wouldn't hear the difference because it is only one beat. Also, many songs include more than just 4 sixteenth notes in succession, so practicing 4 isn't too practical. Perhaps 8 or more would be better, as that's what you'll more likely find, and also what will be harder to tongue. Also, as has been said, scales are much better because they have many more notes and also requires tongue-finger coordination. However, many people that can't tongue for extended periods of time put two-note slurs every 2 beats or so to "rest" the tongue so that it is not too sluggish. Forgot where I found this link, i think it was on the BB yesterday, but it talks about instead of using slurs to rest, you use double tongue. So that would be 2 double-tongued notes followed by 6 single-tongued notes. That would sound all tongued, still be very precise, and your tongue wouldn't be tired. However, I can't double tongue, never tried, although it still seems a good method: from Clark Fobes.
http://www.clarkwfobes.com/Synthetic%20Speed%20Tonguing.htm
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-08-04 11:53
And my limit is about 80. And no teacher, nor my extensive efforts, ever made the slightest difference. That's why I am not a professional player, and why multi-instrumental show music is better for my indulgence. But I would never tackle G&S on clarinet!
I believe some people simply have severe limitations either in tongue muscle speed or nerve transmission speed. I suppose they amount to the same thing.
Perhaps this would make a good thesis study.
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Author: Aussie Nick
Date: 2003-08-04 12:21
I wish I could tongue at 150! Mendelssohn Scherzo at 88 is pushing my limits. 80 or 84 is more comfortable.
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Author: Jerry McD.
Date: 2003-08-04 13:55
Here are a few things that have really helped me. The tongue is a muscle and must be exercised regularly. To tongue fast you must practice tonguing at less than maximum speed over longer periods. Think of how a sprinter trains. Someone who wants to run 100 meters as fast as possible trains at longer distances (200 - 800 meters) and occassionally does a max sprint. Take an etude that you know fairly well that is two pages of mostly sixteenth notes. Turn your metronome to about 112 and tongue every note in the etude. If you can't make it to the end slow your metronome down to where you can. Do this every day and you will find your max tongue speed will increase (as well as finger coordination and almost all other types of articulations will improve too). I believe that if you spend 10 minutes a day of concentrated effort spent tonguing extended passages, you can make great strides in a short period of time.
Good luck I hope this helps.
Jerry McD.
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