 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: theclarinetist
Date: 2003-08-01 04:38
This is sorta a branch off of the post about composer's writing in certain keys... This question may have more to do with psychology than music, but what the heck...
People say that they associate sounds with colors, emotions, etc... I've always been skeptical of this claim, but perhaps it's just because I don't "get it". I have no doubt that people associate many different things with music, but my question is more whether or not these images (colors/emotions/etc) are inherent characteristics of the music, or just personal interpretations.
It is personally my opinion that what we hear (interpretatively) is largely a product of socialization, not the inherent characteristics of the music itself. I think we are taught what sounds happy or sad... I could be wrong though.. Also, not all cultures use the same musical system, so if our system of music is inherently the correct way the express what we want, then how are those writing and playing in other systems capable of musical expression? It seems that each musical system makes its own emotional associates, there is no concrete connection between emotion and music...
I guess what I'm saying is that, to me, I don't see what makes a song in a minor key "sadder" than a song in a major key (mind you, I'm speaking in very general terms) - other than the fact that I've been socialized to think that way.
I guess this isn't really a question as much as it's just ideas... tell me what you think
Don
PS - this is a good example of my idea... if we took someone who had never heard a note of music in their life and played them a piece of music that we call sad, would they think it was sad (making it a seemingly inherent characteristic) or would they form their own interpretation? I'm not saying music can't express emotions, but we have to learn to interpret the musical language of the composer (aka minor=sad, major=happy etc - again, very general terms) before we can appreciate what they're saying...
PPS - On the other hand, the music language had to be define at some point... when music started emerging as a form of emotional expression, there was obviously some sort of consensus as to what sounds conveyed what emotion... just thinking...
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Author: GBK
Date: 2003-08-01 05:20
Don...The latest research seems to indicate that until the age of 5, children base their emotional judgements of music solely by tempo (fast=happy, slow=sad). However, by the age of 6, a child's ability to distinguish major from minor (happy to sad), regardless of tempo, seems to be fully formed.
Read Dalla Bella's work in this area:
http://www.nature.com/nsu/010404/010404-10.html ...GBK
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2003-08-01 08:08
I think it's a little of both.
There are certain concepts in music that seem fundamental and universal. Dominant-tonic resolutions of all flavors, for example, create tension and resolve it. This is found in various independently-formed musical cultures. Indian classical music, for example, features a drone that is commonly based on the root and 5th of the particular scale featured in the piece. Although the music doesn't make use of chordal harmonies, there is usually a clear progression of tensions and releases (though the tension may last for minutes on end if the music demands) in a manner not entirely unlike the "Western" melodic and harmonic structure. It's a value of the composition of the sound itself, overtones and such.
On the other hand, people from different cultures may not look at all music the same way. A teacher of mine once told me a story of an Indian musician who accompanied him to a Classical/Romantic concert, and after hearing pieces in major and minor, asked something along the lines of "Aren't they going to play any other scales?"
I also think it's quite reasonable for the exact same music (not all music, of course) to sound either "sad" or "happy" or whatever, depending on how it is played.
However, I also think that in the placement of notes, voice leading, nuance, etc., a piece becomes more effectively happy or sad than with simple scale selection.
An interesting question, though... but as with any music, I'm sure it's largely subjective. As for associating sounds with colors and emotions, I'd guess it's probably a subconscious connection that's specific to the individual.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2003-08-01 09:02
I agree to some extent with socialization theories, as well as the fast-slow major-minor ideas. However:
Stravinsky said that music isn't capable of expressing any emotion. We project our emotions onto the music. The same piece of music can sound different to us depending on:
1. What mood we're in when we are listening to it.
2. The context in which we are listening to it.
For example- the slow movement of Mozart's clarinet concerto would have a completely different effect if you listened to it in a church service than if you listened to it shortly after the death of a family member. And it would also sound completely different if you listened to it while making love!
Some of Schubert's saddest music is in a major key. Klezmer music can be happy and sad at the same time!
I can't remember which movie it was, but it ended off with Louis Armstrong singing "What a Wonderful World" and it was SO sad!
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Author: BobD
Date: 2003-08-01 11:52
Yes, and what about dissonance? Many discussions of likes and dislikes center around Western music as if nothing else existed so it's refreshing to hear some other views. My personal opinion is that we are conditioned to interpret the sounds we hear.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2003-08-01 12:22
Prof. Diana Deutsch has spent most of her professional career studying and writing on the psychology of music. Her books are well worth while reading.
In a short Scientific American article a number of years back she demonstrated the regional differences in interpretation of music between the US and England. Fascinating reading!
http://psy.ucsd.edu/~ddeutsch/
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Author: William
Date: 2003-08-01 14:32
Interesting food for thought, but I would just rather listen or play, and enjoy..........(even if I don't know why)
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Author: Brenda
Date: 2003-08-01 14:43
Babies and children are the true test of pure emotions. They haven't been conditioned quite yet to how they're supposed to respond to music. Also studies have been done on the effects of animals and plants to different kinds of music - there's not a chance that you can tell them how to respond. It's quite interesting to view childrens' responses to a variety of music. Have you seen some kids up and dancing to salsa, merengue or marches? Also, when we're emotionally whacked it's awfully nice to have some really soothing and quiet music to listen to with the lights off and eyes closed. We can save the vivacious stuff for when we feel better. As we well know, music can really be therapy.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2003-08-01 15:46
This is a "where angels fear to tread" thread, but here goes. I guess when I hear Barber's Adagio/ Beeth's Erocia Funeral march, some of Mussorsky's Pics/ Grieg/ Tschai etc etc, I think of "somber" colors. In contrast,Beeth's 6th = happiness, Roumanian Raphsody=excitement as does L'Arles and some Carmen, Bizet etc etc, "light" colors? Gypsy music , Lizst, seems to be either happy or sad, no in-between. Just thots. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: wyatt
Date: 2003-08-01 17:35
music without emotions is just sounds.
t
bob gardner}ÜJ
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Author: Bob A
Date: 2003-08-02 18:59
It was so long ago I can't recall the date but I was present at a symposium where Miklos Rosa was describing his scoring of "Lost Weekend" staring Ray Miland. In the opening scene where one sees the bottle dangling out the window on a chord, he had to revise the music. In a secret preview the selected audience started to laugh as their "senses" as developed from the music told them this was a comedy. A quick revision changed that. It was (I think) the first major use of the Therimen (sp?) in a motion picture score. Bob A
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