 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: c@p
Date: 2003-07-21 00:15
A well respected band director told me that he recommended that his clarinet students use gun oil in stead of cork grease. He said that he never had to reapply anything on the cork after one application of gun oil.
What has anyone else heard about this?
Thanks
C@p
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2003-07-21 00:32
Probably works fine if you have a twelve-gauge Clarinet.
Regards,
John
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Author: jbutler ★2017
Date: 2003-07-21 00:35
No, but there was a band director/trombone player that swore by STP also. He was a fantastic trombonist, but had I suggested he use vegetable oil on his slide he would have thought I was CRAZY! Do a search on Dr's products or go to his link on this web site. I'm not saying gun oil wouldn't work, but why use it when there is a great all natural product out there.
jbutler
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Author: John J. Moses
Date: 2003-07-21 00:36
Do not use gun oil on your clarinet for any reason.
It's made for GUNS, not musical instruments.
Key oil, bore oil, and cork grease is fine, just stay away from gun oil.
JJM
Légère Artist
Clark W. Fobes Artist
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Author: Ed
Date: 2003-07-21 01:30
I may consider it when Vandoren comes out with the M16 mouthpiece.
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Author: Neil
Date: 2003-07-21 01:30
I think muzzle-loader lube, which is non-petroleum, would be better.
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2003-07-21 02:03
(Disclaimer - I sell both a natural and syntetic based cork grease) As a scientist I do not disallow any observation and there may be formulations of gun oil and other lubricants that are not harmful to cork but I have not found any yet. Many of the synthetic lubricants and greases are based on the same spectrum of lubricants that were developed for NASA and the aerospace program. Many however, and there are now over 3,000 Military Specification Number (Mil. Spec. #) lubricants listed by NASA in their General Services Administration U.S. Government buying guide and discount list, do not interact well and can destroy natural products such as cork and wood. Some however can be used as cork grease and some are superior. Most are overly expensive due to their limited production and specific uses in the aerospace program. Many synthetic lubricants sold for metals are hybrids of these Mil.Spec. oils and greases and do not possess the same properties specified for by NASA. None, to my knowledge, that I have tested (numbering in the hundreds) will preserve cork (of course cork is the bark of the cork tree) or wood to the extent that natural, plant derived, formulations of oil will do. Most of these products are actually more expensive than they should be given their ingredients. The most that you can hope for in a synthetic is a superior lubricant that will not harm the cork like most of the petroleum based products sold to musicians.
The Doctor
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2003-07-21 02:07
Sorry, that may be a mistake. In my previous post, "twelve-gauge Clarinet" probably should have read "B-flat shotgun."
Regards,
John
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Author: ron b
Date: 2003-07-21 03:38
The well respected Band Director is absolutely correct, C&P. Gun oil is great for removing contact cement. Your corks won't stay in place long enough for you to reapply anything.
- r![[cool]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/cool.gif) n b -
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Author: BobD
Date: 2003-07-21 13:55
Gun oil ,along with a number of other oils. are excellent for removing cork grease and miscellaneous residue from cork via "ragging" with cheesecloth.
If you try to assemble a part cleaned in this manner without reapplying cork grease you find it essentially not possible. You may have misunderstood what was said. I am always mystified by the term "natural product". There is always the inference that there is a difference between "natural" and "manmade" products. I suppose that olive oil is a natural product but then doesn't petroleum come from once living plants too? If "man" blends a variety of "natural" oils is the result natural? Just rambling.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-07-21 14:32
Just because it removes cork grease does not necessarily make it suitable for this operation, e.g. if you use acetone to remove cork grease on a plastic instrument it will disolve the plastic. Other cleaners will break down the molecular bonds in the plastic and shatter it.
Before using gun oil I would want to know what it does to the timber, and the cork, and the adhesive used to hold the cork on.
BTW, there must be a variety of oils used for a gun. Which part of the gun is meant? The mechanism or the timber stock?
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2003-07-21 15:26
Bob - you are right in questioning my terminology but common usage has twisted many discrete words and loosened their meanings. When I refer to my products as "Natural" it should say: mixtures of "living" plant derived oils, plant derived emulsifiers which are used by several species of plants to integrate their own native oils having distinct hydrophobic and hydrophilic (water attracting and repelling) characteristics, plant derived antioxidants - the antioxidant molecules that plants actually use to counteract the potent oxidation chemical radicals produced in the photosynthesis process (Vitamin E derived from plants is only a good antioxidant in animal systems and not the one(s) used by plants themselves), and plant derived stabilization agents that allow plant oils of different rheologic (physical properties) to remain in solution. These mixtures are indeed not "Naturally" occuring but are formed from current plant derived entities into cohesive and compatible mixtures. The foregoing is way too much of a mouthful so excuse my use of "Natural" as a descriptor.
Petroleum, the decay product of prehistoric plants, is a transformed product (of heat, pressure, and catalytic reactions found no where else in Nature) that has completely different chemical, physical, and end use characteristics than "living" plant derived oils. It is "Natural" in the sense that it is derived from plants but unnatural to the present world of plant tissue derived products - e.g. wood and cork. Further processing (petroleum cracking) subdivides the complex nature of petroleum into subspecies and hybrids that would never be produced as single entities in quantity from a "Natural" chemical decay process. Synthetic oils and lubricants can replicate some of the structures and uses common to petroleum products or may be chemical structures not found (possibly not yet discovered however) in "Nature". Synthetics may or may not be harmful to recently living plant tissue - i.e. wood and cork. Many petroleum based products can be harmful to wood and cork.
The Doctor
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Author: BobD
Date: 2003-07-21 16:46
Gordon...If the gun oil migrated to the adhesive it certainly would weaken it,based on my experience. However, in cleaning cork tenons using oil by ragging I myself do not leave the oil on the cork long enough for it to migrate. I have used this cleaning method quite a lot and it seems not to damage the bond of the cork with the adhesive. I don't use gun oil myself but just any light lubricating oil that I have around. They all seem to work. I assume "gun oil" means Hoppe's Gun Oil or equivalent lubricating oil used for the moving parts of gun mechanisms, but,who knows, the source of the statement might even have meant "3 In One" oil. Tung oil is often used for the "timber" parts of guns.
Doc: I wasn't singling out your usage of the term but,rather, the general tendency in a number of areas to infer that products described as "natural" are either good for one or better than "non natural" products. I find your products to be the most dependable ones to use....regardless of how you describe them. Personally I just find using the term "natural" as an inference that something is superior to be rather confusing.
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Author: L. Omar Henderson
Date: 2003-07-21 17:17
Bob - it was not taken as such. IMHO "Natural" is way overused and hyped when the active ingredient in the natural product can, in many cases, be much more standardized and dosage more accurate in a chemically synthesized version or an extract of the natural product which is analyzed for potency of particular compounds. Also, IMHO there are physical-chemical laws governing the combination and association of molecules which are all governed by the same laws which exist in "Nature". There are some compounds which exist in Nature that we in our feeble state of chemistry knowledge have not been able to duplicate. One could go about synthesizing Almond oil, Grapefruit Pit antioxidant, etc.. but the cost would be so prohibitive to make such products that a select source and quality control testing is the only economical route to take in preparing "Natural" products.
The Doctor
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Author: c@p
Date: 2003-07-21 18:19
I appreciate these many responses, ever the ones that tangent into the concept of muciscal munitions.
I have not had a chance to digest everything that was written yet (but I will) so let me repose the question to: Is there something that can be used to lubricate the corks so lubrication is eithern not needed again or not needed for a long time.
The reason I ask is that I find that I am more likely to practice more often during the day if the clarinet is already set up. In the past I have found that after some period of time it was very difficult to separate the parts.
Thanks again.
C@p
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2003-07-21 20:08
Very well put, Bob D, I've been "lurking" this thread, trying to NOT comment on this lubricants/solvents/treatments discussion, having had some 40+ years in the petroleum/petrochemicals/organics businesses, but just have to join in!! Glad to see your comment re: the [lack of] superiority of [so-called] NATURAL products. Nearly nothing is truly natural any more, IMHO. Grass, perhaps, no for wood, milk, gasoline and AIR! etc/etc, as in the Latin , circumspice [I'm from Michigan!]. This all reminds me of when I was teaching Petroleum Chemistry to graduate Elect and Mech Engrs! It was interesting! Too much has been said already! Yes, C@P, we have discussed lengthy cl assembly before also, generally not a good idea. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: BobD
Date: 2003-07-21 22:49
c@p: So, maybe you did use the gun oil?? Many players like to leave their horn assembled during the day so they can practice as time permits. Maybe you should consider dissembling it at night. If dissembly is difficult after more than a day then maybe your cork grease is not doing the job. OR, maybe you failed to swab after each play session and the tenons swelled.
First I suggest that one should swab after each play session whether you dissemble the horn or not. Second, I suggest you should dissemble at least each night. If you follow these suggestions maybe you won't have dissembly problems. Third, use a recognized good cork grease such as Doctor's Products. There may be a permanent cork lubricant such as you are looking for but if there is I am not aware of it. My personal preference is to swab and dissemble after each practice but this is not a universal preference.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-07-22 02:42
With Doctors Products cork greases you are most UNlikely to have a sticking-on problem, even with the instrument left assembled for long periods.
These products also are least likely to damage the resilience of the cork. You are already damaging the resilience enough with long periods of assembly without an inappropriate grease breaking down the cork structure as well.
But is your sticking on problem because of the timber being to large a diameter for the socket, as discussed many times before in this forum.
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2003-07-22 17:04
I have always disagreed with oiling of the clarinet, except in mid winter when it is very dry.
My teacher Harold Wright felt the oiling of the instrument did nothing for the tone or even prevention of cracking.
All oiling does is wet the surface, and with a tiny bit of playing is removed with the acids from the mouth.
If an instrument is properly oiled by the manufacturer, only very rare occasional oiling is necessary.
As to oiling in the most humid time of the year, that I feel will not help prevent cracking.
These are just my thoughts, and opinion. As to others, I would think that gun oil would smell quite a bit!
David Dow
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Author: BobD
Date: 2003-07-22 21:27
David: I have assumed he was only referring to the outside of the horn.....bobD
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-07-22 22:36
"All oiling does is wet the surface"
David, it seems you have not read the screeds of information provided in this forum on the results of Omar Henderson's research in this area, leading to supplying oils that do NOT just sit on the surface, and which buffer the moisture content in the timber, reducing the stresses.
From Omar we have far more valuable information than that from a teacher who "feels" something. We are fortunate indeed.
At the very least, read the information at our sponsor's web site.
http://www.doctorsprod.com/DrsProduct.html
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