 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2003-07-19 12:58
Saw the slightly older post and it got me thinking. I use it every now and then just to check if I'm biting or not, but I do feel comfortable using it and it helps me to hit all the notes cleanly. I was wondering how long people would think it'd take to actually convert over to double lip as a fulltime playing "thing". I only would be using it about 3 - 4 hours a day maximum for practicing and performing. And I have very resistant lips (and a very high tolerance for pain, too!) Just wondering if it'd be worth switching over.
Also, isn't double-lip kinda the "ideal" way to play? I figure that oboes and bassoons use double reeds. Which I heard somewhere means that they are reed instruments in the "pure" sense of the word. And they have to use double lip . . . . see where I'm going with this? Thanks everyone.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: krawfish3x
Date: 2003-07-19 14:43
the double lip embouchure is the "more natural" way to play the clarinet. i use it myself, and i always have so i wouldnt know how long it would take to convert to using it. you have to remember though, you arent just biting into you're top lip, you are using it as support too. i also agree that it is easier to play notes cleanly while using this embouchure. although it's not the best thing to use on the marching band field(i know from experience).
if you are practicing/performing 3-4 hours a day i would recommend that you play using double lip all the time but since you are just starting to use it play for about 30-45 minutes them take a 10 minute break so you dont end up with extremely soar lips by the end of the night. never play if you lips hurt. sometimes it may feel like the clarinet is slipping from your mouth if you embouchure is tired, this is normal.
i reccomend the switch. if you play sax, there is no double lip embouchure which i found out when i started sax.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2003-07-19 15:43
krawfish3x wrote:
> the double lip embouchure is the "more natural" way to play the
> clarinet.
Would you be specific on why you think this is true?
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Author: William
Date: 2003-07-19 16:07
"i reccomend the switch. if you play sax, there is no double lip embouchure which i found out when i started sax."
The most common mistake clarinetists make, when switching to the saxophone, is to use too much pressure or "bite" in forming the sax embouchure. I have found, over the years, that the "double lip" embouchure works very well--especially on my alto--and most naturally forms the desired pressure configuration of the lips. It allows a rich, vibrant tone quality, enables effective vibrato and add's more flexabilty in the tuning process--as well as helping produce those jazz idomistic scoops, falls, and glisses that just sound cool. The use of double lip in sax playing is a desirable technique to develope and makes sax playing much more "fun." However, probably the majority of sax artists use the more conventional "teeth on" approach--but most likely with attention to more upper lip support, and not just "all teeth." This same concept may also be true with most "good" clarinetists who use the conventional and not the DL.
Bottom line: relying solely on the upper teeth for 100% support is not recommended in clarineting--nor in sax playing. Some support should always come from the upper lip--better tone, flexability in tuning, reponse, etc. Nothing but "good" comes from the DL embouchure technique. And I recommend that even the conventional "teeth on" players to help learn to use the upper lip support in their everyday playing. Hint: double lip is a great way to keep those diminuendoing long notes from going really sharp toward the end.
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Author: Wes
Date: 2003-07-19 17:40
Once in a seminar, I asked Mr. Stoltzman to play the first part of the Concertino with teeth on the mouthpiece and with his normal double lip embouchure. To me, he sounded better with a more focussed sound with the teeth on the mouthpiece.
As an oboe player, I use both lips on reeds every day. For the clarinet, I see the double lip embouchure as having some disadvantages. It makes it less easy to take a lot of the mouthpiece in the mouth, it seems to be less stable, which could result in occasional shakiness in the sound, and the physical support of the instrument is less firm.
However, if my teeth were too painful to put them on the mouthpiece, I could switch in a moment. Good luck!
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Author: BobD
Date: 2003-07-19 18:21
Who wants to "take a lot" of the mouthpiece in the mouth anyway? "Less stable".....like supporting the horn with your right thumb? Personally I don't support your cons. The only real con is that until your upper lip area is calloused it can be a bit painful. But if you use single lip and somebody accidently hits your bell upwards that can be painful too. I've played double lip since day one and find it "most natural".
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Author: theclarinetist
Date: 2003-07-19 18:59
Two people have defined playing double lipped as being "more natural". What exactly does this mean? What makes one way more natural than the other (consider than playing an instrument isn't really a "natural" function of the body to start with....)?
Second, while this is not a deterimant of which embouchure one should use, does anyone know approximately what percentage of professional clarinetists use single vs. double?
DH - theclarinetist@yahoo.com
PS - I've tried double lip before, and sometimes do it just for fun, but I personally haven't found the difference worth the amount of effort it would take to switch. It is great for diagnosing biting though...
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2003-07-19 19:35
When playing baritone sax, I often kept my upper teeth off the mouthpiece but with the upper lip in front of the upper teeth (not under them), so the enbouchure had little to do with upper teeth at all. No one ever told me to do that, it just somehow felt "more natural." Worked fine for me.
Perhaps playing a didgeridoo is more natural than playing a Clarinet.
Regards,
John
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Author: BobD
Date: 2003-07-19 20:57
I certainly didn't "define" doublelip as being more natural. What does it mean when they say a ballplayer is a natural left hander or a natural first basemen? Or, how about the song, "Doing What Comes Naturally". I learned dbl.lip from my first teacher ergo it's my natural way to do it.
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2003-07-19 21:24
I don't know about percentages, but most professional players use single lip. But then again- so what? 250 years ago most professional players played with the reed on top! Use whatever works best for you.
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Author: Karel
Date: 2003-07-20 04:49
With regard to double lip being more "natural": I have heard that beginners, when first given the instrument without instruction to anchor on the upper teeth, will largely start with "double lip". I know I did, as did my daughter. Without instruction to do otherwise, most would probably continue with their "natural" choice. Does that make sense? What is your experience as a teacher, GBK?
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Author: GBK
Date: 2003-07-20 05:55
Karel...I've started hundreds of beginners and a good number of them, during their first lesson, "assumed" that since the bottom lip slightly covers the bottom teeth, that the top lip should do the same for the top teeth.
Whether that was their "natural" choice - I don't know, as it is difficult to say what runs through the mind of a nine year old.
For them, it probably seemed like the most logical thing to do...GBK
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2003-07-20 06:44
When I got my first clarinet at the age of 8, I assumed that the reed should be placed on the upper lip rather than the lower lip. That seemed to me the most "natural" thing to do. This is also the way people started playing the clarinet in the 18th century.
Before that I had been playing recorder, and played with the right hand at the top. Unfortunately I wasn't able to do that on clarinet, although that was also possible on many 18th century clarinets.
Maybe I played clarinet in a previous life? Maybe all the double-lippers out there played oboe in a previous life? :-)
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Author: Ted
Date: 2003-07-20 14:02
To answer Alexi's question: when I changed from single to double lip, it took about a month for it to feel comfortable. I like the feeling of double lip and the sound it produces. I also think it aids in keeping a comfortable angle for the clarinet coming out of the mouth. I need to add that I'm not a big fan of keeping the clarinet straight down with elbows jutting out a bit. But I digress ( and the clarinet angle could be a post by itself).
If double lip works for you, use it. There are great players using it and great players not using it. - TD
Post Edited (2003-07-20 14:03)
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Author: William
Date: 2003-07-20 15:36
I once asked Larry Combs (Prin. Clr w/Chicago Symphony Orchestra) if he used double lip. He replied "NO, but thank's for the compliment."
For clarification, I was one poster who used the word "natural". I used it in conjunction with learning to employ the correct lip pressure for sax playing, and did not mean it to be a "natural" method for performance. Who know's what "that" means, anyhow?? DL on either sax or clarinet certainly allows the reed to vibrate most freely, and the player using the "teeth on" embouchure could very likely improve their sound and response by using more upper lip support (as in DL) in combination with the teeth.
But for double lip being the natural way to play.......although a lot of players use it, it is not a valid statement in itself.
(I, too, assembled my first clarinet at home with the reed on top, and got a sound--4th grade, 1950)
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2003-07-20 15:55
William wrote:
> DL on either sax or clarinet certainly
> allows the reed to vibrate most freely,
And how would that be possible? The lower lip is the only thing touching the reed, so the upper lip cannot, in any way, shape, or form, affect the reed directly.
Indirectly, double lip will probably reduce the mount of pressure of the lower lip on the reed, and will change the shape of the embouchure. This will certainly change things, but it's not the result of the upper lip per se. If you could mold your lower lip into the same shape and reduce the pressure as double lip causes you to do the results would be (or at least should be) identical.
I'm just trying to separate out cause and effect here - they get intertwingled so often. While double lip may or may not "allow the reed to vibrate most freely" (I wouldn't make that statement without really measuring the phenomena) the causes and effect may be different than what you surmise. Why is this important? Because there may be more than one way to get the effect you desire, and one of those ways may be significantly easier than another.
There is also the perception of how you sound. Using double lip (or a patch) will lessen the amount of bone conduction to your ears, changing the way you hear yourself, but that may or may not be the way others hear you.
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Author: John C
Date: 2003-07-20 17:19
Find this discussion very interesting. Have played dl for many years and have studied with teachers who are propnents of single and dl. Couldn't agree more with "perception" of how one sounds with the upper lip and or a patch on mouthpiece vs teeth.
One advantage I have found with dl is the seemingly automatic point of the tongue when using dl. Try wrapping both lips over teeth and stick out your tongue - is it pointed or flatened ? It's pointed - most folks agree that a pointed tongue is useful in air direction and articulation. One has to try to flaten the tongue with both lips turned in over the teeth.
However, for most players using dl for the first several weeks is because of the pain involved they lose the support of the right thumb thus allowing the clarinet to sag into the lower lip. Supporting the clarinet on the knee is an alternative, however, while doing this one must keep the clarinet supported with slight upward support of the right thumb.
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Author: deepriver27
Date: 2003-07-20 18:40
I an strongly considering changing to doube lip - I love the sound improvement, and now have a month or so before I have to do any serious rehearsing again. Good time to work at it I guess, but I'm finding difficulty especially with high C - alot of pressure on the upper lip. Interesting posts here, thank you.
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Author: sfalexi
Date: 2003-07-20 23:05
Deepriver,
That's one of the reasons people will experiment with double lip. In order to make sure that you're not getting the higher notes by "pinching" your reed against the MP (which is the way we all begin I'm sure), using double lip ensures that your embouchre is actually LOOSE enough to let that note sound. You shouldn't feel pain in biting if you are playing those notes correctly.
So bottom line, if you are using a lot of pressure and your teeth are really diggin in there, your embouchre isn't LOOSE enough. It's not a question of how hard your biting, just making sure that the reed is vibrating fast enough. Try using less mouth pressure and more air.
Alexi
US Army Japan Band
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Author: Brenda
Date: 2003-07-21 02:25
Previous posts to this BB had mentioned double lipping as a training aid to be sure that we're using the proper embouchure and using the proper facial muscles. Since having started using this method for short periods of time I've found that I'm tiring out a whole different set of muscles - as painful as it was to begin the benefits are coming along. First of all I don't experience any more jaw pain. Also the sound is better supported, and I don't have nearly as many squeaking reeds as before.
So for a few minutes at the beginning of each practice session I'll be using double lipping just to remind my subconscious which muscles should be called upon to work that evening. The exercise is paying dividends.
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Author: deepriver27
Date: 2003-07-22 10:23
Alexi;
I tried your suggestion and am now definitely going to change to dl. Thanks so much!
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