 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: wjk
Date: 2003-07-17 20:39
I, um. er... might...um...play with a... OK, I'll come right out and say it....a rock band. See they have used a sax player, and they know I play clarinet, and.... am I crazy? Actually, they play alot of early "rock and roll"---which to me contains "big band" like elements. Any suggestions/comments?
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Author: Henry
Date: 2003-07-17 20:47
If your hips can move like Elvis', I would give it a real try! If not, maybe you should pass up this great opportunity!
Henry
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2003-07-17 20:47
WJK,
As a person has has played all the jazz venues (combo, big band), a lot of dixieland, as well as some early rock, I just can't see the clarinet in this venue. Although you say there is a big band idea coming down here, I just don't think the sound of the clarinet is really compatible with what you are suggesting.
IMHO maybe your energy would be better channled in learning to play the tenor sax. I think GBK is your teacher, right. He can help you with this very easily.
HRL
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Author: hans
Date: 2003-07-17 21:46
I agree with Hank Lehrer - learn to play tenor sax. You could rent one for a few weeks to see if it's what you want.
Hans
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Author: William
Date: 2003-07-17 22:05
Tenor sax is where it's at in R&R. Even if you can't play "real good" when you start, don't worry--your performing efforts will fit right into the early rock style emulated by some early rock'n saxers. Above all, have fun--it only takes a few good licks to rock the night away.
(learn flutter tongue)
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Author: diz
Date: 2003-07-17 22:12
The Melbourne Symphony had NO problem forming a relationship with Kiss ... why should you?
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Author: Bob A
Date: 2003-07-17 23:03
I agree with William. Tenor Sax, 4 Chords and lots of NOISE!
Bob A
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Author: Mark Pinner
Date: 2003-07-17 23:13
What a load of rubbish William. A lot of the early Rock and Roll sax players developed a distinctive style with its own technical difficulties. They had as much influence over the contemporary saxophone sound and style as the earlier jazz players. I suggest you listen to some of the luminaries in this field, some of whom were equally as good at playing jazz and blues, before you condemn their efforts as second rate. I would suggest you listen to a) Loius Jordan especially the Tympani 5 recordings, b) King Curtis not just his solo in Yacketty Yak but a wide selection; boy could he tongue c) the immortal Boots Randolph of Yakety Sax fame who also played sax on most Elvis recordings, d) Illinois Jacquet etc.. These guys all came out of either the swing, jazz or blues fields and developed playing styles to suit the new kind of music much as the swing players had done a couple of decades before. A few good licks do not pass anything more than a couple of songs if you are lucky. Having played the local Rock and Roll circuit on and off, mainly on, for over a dozen years I can tell you it is damn hard work which takes lots of rehearsal, listening and ideas. A good memory helps too. WJK do not make a half baked attempt. If you are going to play this kind of music, as with any other, do it well!
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2003-07-17 23:34
wjk,
Here's what it took for me. The first time I ever played a gig with a real heavy rock band, I was a little worried that I would not know the tunes. However, I have a very good set of ears - plus a degree in music and a lot of jazz experience - which allowed me to know about all that was happening harmonically and melodically after one chorus or two at the most.
During the first couple of choruses, I'd do some background fill - learning as I went - and then the lead guy would look at me and away I'd go, improving for a couple more courses. They loved it and told me after the job that I was even better than their regular sax player. I got many calls from them in the following years; the pay was very good as well.
So wjk, I think you must have a good set of ears and be able to improvise or it is going to be a long, frustrating night. Now if this is going to be what we used to call a "garage band" you can start there but anyhting more than that is asking for trouble.
I applaude your drive but encourage you to be cautious. What looks like fun and some good times can be a real challenge unless you have the tools. I still think learning tenor is the best start.
HRL
Ps One thing that struck me after I posted originally was that over the years I have learned an incredible number of tunes. Many of them rock tunes so I may have had a better start then I described above. How's your repertoire?
Post Edited (2003-07-18 11:31)
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Author: Neil
Date: 2003-07-18 00:21
I seem to recall the Lovin' Spoonful (a 60's folk rock band) using a clarinet but I couldn't tell you any details.
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Author: wjk
Date: 2003-07-18 01:56
Thanks for the replies/suggestions.
I guess I won't post my other idea which was to play oboe with an Ozzie Osbourne tribute band.
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Author: allencole
Date: 2003-07-18 04:27
I'd be curious about the clarinet appearance with the spoonful. The most likely rock users of the clarinet were probably the Carpenters, who had a single multi-reed man, I believe.
A few other pop clarinet appearances:
Blood, Sweat & Tears incorporated one on "Mama Gets High"
Van Halen had their dad play it on "Big Bad Bill"
Hank Williams, Jr. may have had one on "Women I've Never Had", but it might be a soprano sax. It's been a long time since I've heard it.
Lynn Anderson had a clarinet solo on her version of "Snowbird." I think it was probably Pete Fountain.
Allen Cole
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Author: Bob Schwab
Date: 2003-07-18 05:41
WJK
Don't listen to the naysayers. I can think of three good examples why it's worth a try.
The first being Jethro Tull. Who'd a thought of using a flute with a rock band, and look what became of them. They were damn good!
The second is Supertramp. They had a woodwind specialist who played both clarinet and saxaphone in many of their songs.
And finally, the third example that comes to mind is Kansas. They integrated the violin into their sound rather nicely.
None of these bands sounded like anyone else, and they were better for it. Their uniqueness is what made them special.
Go for it.
Bob Schwab
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Author: Terry Horlick
Date: 2003-07-18 06:50
WJK, I recently rented and viewed "Wild Man Blues". That is a Woody Allen thing. I think if you can cultivate a tone and style similar to his in that film it would go a long way towards replacing a tenor sax for R&R. You can do a growl with your clarinet as well as you can with a sax. Get the rastiest horn you can and the poor tone you need can be blamed on that!
Have fun, but don't destroy your chops!
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Author: GBK
Date: 2003-07-18 06:55
A few more pop clarinet appearances:
Beatles - "When I'm Sixty Four"
Joni Mitchell - "For Free" ...GBK
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Author: KENOLD
Date: 2003-07-18 07:32
I agree sax would be easier. However I would vote for you to at least try clarinet.
My sugestions: Abandon the symphonic sound. Play airy and dirty. Use a loose embouchure and open throat. Bend notes and use vibrato where appropriate. Look to blues and jazz players for examples. Play along with Cd's and the radio. Think more along the lines of filling and harmonizing than playing lead. Play along with Cd's and the radio.
I've "noodled" along with Chuck Berry, Bruce Springsteen, ZZ Top, Beach Boys, Greatful Dead etc. and think that someone (better than me) could do a very accepable job of it.
Push the envelope for all of us.
Kenold
Ken
Learn to perform even the things you don't like, as if you love to do them.
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Author: Noel
Date: 2003-07-18 09:06
There are 2 basic problems - it's hard to play loud enough. You need a dedicated clip-on mike - but when the rest of the group get excited and ramp up their volume you are still going to get swamped.
Problem 2 is the sweetness of the sound which doesn't seem to go with how we imagine rock should sound. You can turn this to an advantage if the group are prepared to switch moods and tempos to exploit the quality of your instrument. But you don't have to be sweet and nice all the time. You can get some weird sounds out of a clarinet - squeeks, overtones - lots of grungy noises - and you can process them electronicaly if you like (after all everyone else in the group is).
Final word of advice (forgive me if it's too obvious) - don't play all the time!
If we are looking for clarinetists in rock (as many of the other posts have offered) - may I suggest Lindsay Cooper (bass clarinet with Henry Cow)
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2003-07-18 11:40
Hi,
As far as wjk doing rock with a clarinet, I remember Errol Buddle playing bassoon with the Australian Jazz Quartet in the 1950s. It was magnificent! But name one other jazz player on bassoon other than one of the sidemen that played with the Woody Herman Band (can't remember his name).
While others suggest that you can greatly alter the sound of clarinet to something that might have a better sonic fit, why do that when there are lots of places to musically use the clarinet that do not require such, IMHO, madness.
Tenor can have a "bad" sound appropriate with rock so much more easily. Seems like some of the suggestions above are the long way around and remind me of the joke about the OB GYN that took the engine overhaul class (I'll tell it to you off BB if you so desire).
HRL
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Author: Roger Aldridge
Date: 2003-07-18 11:52
Guys like Ernie Watts and Tim Price use various kinds of windwinds in rock and R&B settings. You should hear the completely wild stuff that Tim plays on BASSOON!
It seems to me that the music comes from within you -- the instrument is secondary. If you've got the music in you (rock, jazz, classical, whatever....) there's no reason why it can't be played on ANY instrument. Are any of you fimilar with Howard Johnson? He often doubles on tuba and bari sax. I've heard him play some amazing rock solos on tuba.
Of course, you'll need to mike your clarinet in order to balance with the rest of the band. But, that's not a big deal.
In my opinion it comes down to expanding our vision of what can be done on the instrument. The clarinet can be just as soulful as a tenor sax. It's up to the PLAYER to make it happen.
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Author: Ralph Katz
Date: 2003-07-18 12:18
This is really cool! Absolutely go for it on clarinet.
There are other threads here on microphones and amplification. I have a pickup (actually a microphone, epoxied into a hole in a mouthpiece) and have played with running this through several guitar effects processors. While these boxes are not setup for the kind of continuous sound that a wind instrument produces, they can produce some cool effects that would work in R&R settings.
I am glad to hear that other people have played clarinet with R&R bands. There are a lot of possiblities here that need to be explored. I haven't done this, yet.
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Author: Benni
Date: 2003-07-18 15:15
Expanding on Kenold's comment, Pee Wee Russell might be a good infulence in this area! ![[grin]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie5.gif)
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Author: ken
Date: 2003-07-18 18:00
And, how about Billy Joel's pop infusion of the saxophone; i.e. Phil Woods' alto solo on "Just the Way You Are".
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Author: Henry
Date: 2003-07-18 19:08
I thought the thread was about clarinet and rock'n roll. If we now start talking about pop and saxophone, one can go on forever. There's hardly any "pop" without sax.
By the way, I love Phil Woods' solo in that piece.
Henry
Post Edited (2003-07-18 19:10)
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Author: Eileen
Date: 2003-07-18 19:32
Don't switch to sax just because that is the conventional thing to do. All kinds of great music get created when unusual elements are thrown together. Think of the unique qualities of a clarinet. It can be sweet. It can sound mysterious and Middle-Eastern. It can make some god-awful squawking squealing sounds.
To add to the list of the (infrequent) uses of clarinet in rock, Patti Smith plays clarinet when she performs live (I'm not sure of the song name). And it sounds like a clarinet making those noises on some tracks on Pere Ubu's Modern Dance album. So, if the rock avant garde isn't afraid to use the clarinet, why should you?
Also, right now, there has been a resurgence of interest in heavily-orchestrated pop/rock music. (and a corresponding backlash of garage). Initially, that took the form of dabbling in electronics but now some bands are leaning towards more acoustically-based orchestration. Radiohead. Polyphonic Spree. Flaming Lips. Yo La Tengo. Low. Belle and Sebastien. Sparklehorse. Wouldn't a clarinet fit right into the mix with these bands? And wouldn't a honking sax sound out of place?
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2003-07-18 23:20
Hi Everyone,
Remember the thread was about wjk playing clarinet with a rock bad. While everyone has suggested some interesting and unique moments of clarinet playing in rock situation, consider having a sideman that would just do a few special numbers on clarinet each night. IMHO, that would not fly very well.
I sense that wjk wanted to be a real part to become part of a group like keyboard, bass, drums, and quitar plus clarinet. This is what I think would not work and why I suggested sax which would be a fit for the whole gig. It is hard for me to imagine a clarinet being played as a part of the ensemble on every tune.
When I work a job, be it rock or jazz, the bulk of my playing is tenor with some soprano sax with a small bit of flute and clarinet on very special tunes. I can't see how having wjk play clarinet on every tune would work out very well harmonically or even sonically.
HRL
Ps Now if wjk plays like Artie Shaw, Benny Goodman, Woody Herman, Buddy DeFranco, or Eddie Daniels among others, that would be terrific. But....
Post Edited (2003-07-18 23:28)
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Author: Burt
Date: 2003-07-19 00:30
Rock bands, like symphony orchestras, play in some wild keys (but good for the violins and guitars). If you're going to play clarinet with them, bring your "A" clarinet also.
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Author: wjk
Date: 2003-07-19 00:32
Please Hank, give me a little credit. In between my brain surgery cases, I've actually been practicing clarinet a lot. I think my rock group gig might really have some potential.....
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Author: dfh
Date: 2003-07-19 00:41
GO FOR IT!!!! what have you got to lose? R & R is such a varied genre these days - clarinet could fit in anywhere. I've been "jamming" with everyone who will play with me, and it's loads of fun. I can't wait to get the peddle thingy (sorry - no mind for techno talk) my bro. gave me (he played his tombone through it in a rock/jam band for a while) hooked up so I can do all kinds of crazy stuff. (even a basic wa-wa pedal will give you many more textures to play with)
now - I havn't ever had to play a cover tune in public, so I don't know how that would work - which it sounds like what they do. I think a clarinet would work great in "old" rock and roll. Plus, ppl have hear these old songs over and over, it might be nice to have a clarinet instead of a sax for a change! And if the band is mostly original/jams etc., and is willing to be patient while you get better at soloing - I think you should do it! It is important to be able to get away from the really centered, focused and refined classical sound. I find I want more and more flexablity in my sound when I "jam", but the classical sound works great with acoustic guitar/mandoline stuff - and on balads etc. And you can do all kinds of funky attacks and bends etc. all the things that you would flunk out of a conservatory for doing! ;-) I've also found that the clarinet, if your chops are strong, is a great "vamping" instrument. - think Alberti bass only rock style with more rhythmic variety. We have such a great range too.... The possibilities are endless!
I've always wonder why the sax "won out" over the clarinet in some ways. I think that part of reason the sax has become so much more popular than clarinet over the years in R & R is b/c it's "easier" to play (I'm sure to get some flak for this) but I think it is. You can get away with a "dirtier" sound, you don't have to cover the holes, and the embroucher is looser, so you can play for longer amounts of time, it overblows to the octave, not the 12th, and it's louder....
As to Hank's comment about all clarinet on a gig not working - ? hmmm...all sax on a gig gets old too (as he obviously knows, since he changes it up), as does all guitar or what ever. You can always sit out, or play some hand percussion, use effects pedals to spice things up.
I'd love to know what happens!
good luck!!
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Author: Barrie Marshall
Date: 2003-07-19 00:43
I have played clarinet with blues bands, cajun bands, street bands, carnival bands, I am a jazzer but I really enjoyed doing it all, the folk bands play mainly in D, A and G as do the cajun bands, the blues bands mainly in E! the carnival band played in all sorts of keys, non of these entailed reading music, a good job as I dont but I pick stuff up by ear quickly and I can improvise. I was once asked to do a recording of two demo tunes with a punk band called 'No Parking' one take and they loved it although I was DEFINITLY not in tune, I did that on my seldom played old silver Buescher TrueTone alto.
GO For IT!
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Author: hans
Date: 2003-07-19 01:58
wjk,
While it is always interesting to have another different voice in a band, IMO some instruments are just not as well suited to certain applications as others. That's why big bands have a sax section instead of a bassoon section (for the record, I like the bassoon). I am not trying to discourage innovation, but it's also worth remembering that instruments were probably chosen for certain roles historically for reasons other than convenience and this should become evident early in the R&R-clarinet experiment.
Learning sax after clarinet (to play well enough for R&R) is almost trivial and IMO it is likely to be the best alternative.
I stand ready to retract my opinion and I'll eat my best reed if you are not doubling on sax by this time next year, assuming you are still playing with a R&R band.
Best wishes,
Hans
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2003-07-19 02:26
wjk,
I never meant in any way to discredit your efforts but practicing the clarinet and playing gigs are two different things: sometimes there is a transfer of learning and other times not. Much like the joke I just sent you :-).
OK, you are a physician and I'm a professor; we both often give people very good advice, based on a lot of experience and education, that is not always taken. Ignore everything I say, select parts you like, or use it all; I have just been responding to your original question.
HRL
PS Hey, brain surgery sounds very interesting and like a lot of fun. Maybe I could ... ah....nah....
Post Edited (2003-07-19 15:37)
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2003-07-19 02:35
Hans,
Loved the bassoon section reference. Also, you don't see too many French horns, oboes, or strings in rock bands either.
HRL
PS I agree that wjk may well be playing sax in a year.
Post Edited (2003-07-19 03:06)
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Author: Guido
Date: 2003-07-19 10:22
(gulp)
I, too, have been experimenting playing clarinet in the midst of rockers.
The group plays tangos/polkas/village music, but mixes in jazz and blues classics, and (gulp) even an occasional rock number.
On occasion we enlarge to include electric bass and guitar, keyboard, drums, blues harmonica, two voices --- and mix in two violins and my clarinet --- all mic'd and mixed.
Frankly, we think the sound is special and appreciated.
That said; I practice tenor and alto sax daily, as it's a no-brainer that more voices are necessary from our reed guy to sustain us.
See, folks just aren't interested in hearing my clarinet on top, song after song, and they EXPECT to hear tenor sax. But the clarinet does fill nicely and takes its solo, offering a novel voice.
The tenor sax may remain today's workhorse, but there's opportunity out there yet. I'm reminded of Tony Bennett's abrupt return to fame, following decades of disregard, once his son booked Tony as a warm-up act at punk rock venues.
Let's bravely introduce the clarinet to a new generation of listeners, by taking the instrument right into the rocker's den.
Guido
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Author: wjk
Date: 2003-07-19 13:40
The responses to this thread are brilliant and contain excellent advice. I have long been thinking of doubling on saxophone, and am fortunate to live near the best clarinet/saxophone player in the USA (guess who).
Thanks!
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Author: Benni
Date: 2003-07-19 21:03
After my wonderfully positive experience with bari sax (see "Doubling on bari" thread), I'd recommend that if alto or tenor don't come as easily to you as you'd like, see if you can borrow/rent a bari (or buy one if you really feel like spending that much)!
Plus, I think a bari would be fitting in a rock band!
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