 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: theclarinetist
Date: 2003-07-14 08:10
Hey, it's 2:56 AM, and I can't sleep (A/C is broken and I'm in Houston sweating like a pig, so I might as well do something productive) so I'm sitting here thinking of questions to stir up some controversy! - Questions about mouthpieces and tone are informative, but sometimes I just want to read some "clarinet drama", so I figure I can start my own (this is probably just the insomnia talking, so disregard my ranting please...)
anway, this is a question I've had for a while (so I'm not just asking it to try to make people get mad, though that could certainly be a positive side-effect!). I DO not see what is so good about the Nielsen Concerto...
I really like Nielsen's compositional style (I personally think that it's some of the best writing in any clarinet concerto...), but as a whole, I think the piece is highly ineffective. It's too long, wanders around (thematically), and is frankly boring (I can usually make it to the second cadenza, but then I can't take it anymore). This is a silly note (but it bothers me)... I also hate the end of it! I know I'm being a dork, but I'm sorry... If I'm going to invest 25 minutes of my day that could be spent listening to other pieces, the LEAST Nielsen could have done was "bring it on home" with a little fireworks or something. The song just dies at the end. After listening to it, I feel like I just sat through a movie with a horrible ending. Psychologically, people tend to remember the beginning and the end of a series (or a piece, in this case), so it seems as a composer you would want to display your best at those places, and leave the middle for development and "artistry", but I highly doubt Nielsen wrote his piece with the sole intention of impressing me, so maybe he wouldn't have cared what I thought. who knows!? Anyway, to recap (and clean up the jumbled mess I just laid before you), I think the piece is ineffective because it's thematic material is choppy and wandery, the piece is boring, too long, and the ending is a MASSIVE dissapointment (especially when you consider the highly technical nature of the rest of the piece).
Allright, I've thrown myself infront of the shooting squad. Take your best shots!!! haha
Don Hite -theclarinetist@yahoo.com
PS - I've already insulted the Mozart, now the Nielsen... any suggestion for my next victim would be highly appreciated!! (kidding - like I said, I'm not just doing this to be a jerk, I actually want to know what everyone thinks!)
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2003-07-14 10:26
I find the Nielsen Concerto to be a highly moving piece of music, and the ending is one of the most emotional endings of any clarinet concerto. Ending with "fireworks" isn't the only good way to end a piece. Also- the way Nielsen develops the themes is one of the most masterful aspects of the composition!
This topic has been covered before:
http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/read.html?f=1&i=95089&t=94860#reply_95089
Which recordings of the piece have you listened to? I highly recommend Hakan Rosengren's recording. I think he really captures the style and various moods of the concerto.
I also highly recommend reading this article for a better understanding of the style and background of the piece:
http://www.woodwind.org/clarinet/Study/Nielsen.html
Even after reading and listening, this piece may still not be your thing. But I would strongly suggest making the effort to try to appreciate both the Nielsen and Mozart concertos. They are amongst the great masterpieces of clarinet repertoire, and you are missing out if you don't appreciate them. You also mentioned that you are a composer. You should try to gain some appreciation of these works on a compositional level. Study the scores. Play through them on piano. Pay attention to orchestration, harmony, counterpoint, structure, etc.
Good luck!
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Author: jez
Date: 2003-07-14 12:00
Neilsen himself considered the clarinet concerto to be amongst his finest works and I'm very fond of it, but I can't help agreeing that it does seem to fade out rather towards the end. I often listen to the first 2/3rds or so and then give up.
I'd recommend the Naxos recording with Kevin Banks.
jez
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Author: William
Date: 2003-07-14 15:00
Personally, I never really liked it. However, I do recognize it as a great showpiece for ones technique and give due credit to anyone who can play it well.
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Author: theclarinetist
Date: 2003-07-14 16:12
I have the Naxos recording with Kevin Banks, I think he plays it really well (even though I've never heard any other versions to compare it to). I have also read both the articles suggested...
DH
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2003-07-14 16:47
Don- you've questioned the musical value of concertos by Mozart, Nielsen, and now jazz. I would suggest moving on next to Brahms, Copland and Klezmer, just to add scope to the musics which you don't understand. What DO you like, by the way?!
People can tell you what they think makes a piece of music great, but if you don't get it yourself, then you'll just say that they still haven't explained it properly for you. You have to find the value in the music yourself, and you have to WANT to find it. For example- people who have the attitude "I don't like modern music" will never like it. It's like religion- you have to open up your mind to the positive aspects of it, otherwise it will just go over your head. It takes some effort on your part, but in the case of Mozart and Nielsen, I'd say it's definitely worth it! In any case, I'll pray for you...
You mentioned a few times that you are a composer. Try writing a concerto better than the Mozart or the Nielsen. You'll either stun the clarinet world, or you'll realise that it's easier to criticise than to create.
Good luck!
P.S. Please stop referring to concertos as "songs". There's no singing in them!
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Author: theclarinetist
Date: 2003-07-14 18:58
Liquorice,
I have questioned Mozart and Nielsen, and I think I have every right to do so. I like the Mozart Concerto, and I like parts of the Nielsen. I also like Brahms, Copland, and (shock of shocks!) Klezmer!!! While it's easy to ASSUME that someone like me is stubborn and not willing to "give stuff a chance", I think you'll find that the opposite is true for me.
I have a large collection of clarinet CDs and sheet music(much of which I buy for the SOLE purpose of studying it), and I'm constantly searching to add to it (the PIECES I have include traditional and not-so-traditional, and span all the musical eras for which clarinet was available and written for). The fact that I am familiar with so much (and such a variety) of the clarinet repertoire makes it harder for me to bend over backwards praising only one or two pieces... This doesn't mean those pieces aren't necessarily good or even close to the best, but there is a lot to choose from, so I am genuinely curious when certain pieces seem to rise to the top of everyone's opinion of what is the "best" (especially if, in the case of the Nielsen, I had so many issues with it). I don't claim to be an expert or an authority, but I'm not just going to swallow the fact that a piece (Nielsen in this case) is "so wonderful" when my ears and my brain tell me otherwise. There are lots of lesser known pieces that I have questions about as well, it's not like I'm out to "take down the big boys" of clarinet music!!! However, discussing a lesser known piece that not as many know or like wouldn't breed much of a discussion...
Thanks!
Don
PS - I once had a very pompous piano teacher who would chastise if I called something a song that was actually a "piece". "Songs have words... this is a piece" is what she'd always say. I don't remember her fondly, and while I appreciate your zest for accuracy, it was 3 in the morning and I was delirious from the heat!! Gimme a break!!! = )
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2003-07-14 20:45
Don wrote: "I don't claim to be an expert or an authority, but I'm not just going to swallow the fact that a piece (Nielsen in this case) is "so wonderful" when my ears and my brain tell me otherwise."
You don't have to swallow it, and you do have every right to question Mozart and Nielsen, etc. However, the compositions of Mozart and Nielsen will live on long after your opinions have died.
Good luck!
P.S. You obviously didn't learn much from your pompous piano teacher then?!
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Author: theclarinetist
Date: 2003-07-14 21:33
Thank god for somebody willing to put up a good fight, Liqourice! I was looking for some "drama" and I got it!! = ) --seriously, no sarcasm!
Anybody else have an opinion on this piece? Like I said, I love a healthy argument, but I don't want to get so far off track that no one else is willing to put in their 2 cents!
Don (the trouble maker) -- theclarinetist@yahoo.com
PS - is a "Song without Words" a song or a piece?
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Author: diz
Date: 2003-07-14 22:09
Nielsen's concerto should be taken in context ... he was very affected by the world at war and this is reflected in a some of his music, especially the amazing 4th symphony and the clarinet concerto - he was also "tasked" to compose this for the members of the Copenhagen wind quintet and, unfortunately, he only got as far as writting concerti for the flute and clarinet ... his original plan (according to Groves' article I think GBK will correct me here if I'm wrong) was to write 5 concerti ... such a shame. Both extant concerti are works of a master, whether you like his harmonic language or not is irrelevant. Simple, if you don't like the music then don't listen to it.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2003-07-14 23:57
As Diz mentioned, Nielsen's original plan was to write a concerto for each member of the Copenhagen Wind Quintet. Each member of the quintet was a personal friend of Nielsen.
Unfortunately, Nielsen (who died in 1931) only was able to complete the Flute Concerto (1926) and the Clarinet Concerto (1928).
As is with Mozart and his Clarinet Concerto, this was the last major instrumental work Nielsen wrote before he died. Ironically, both Mozart and Nielsen were proficient on string instruments (viola, violin) yet each had an uncanny grasp of the nuances and capabilities of the clarinet, through their friendship with clarinet players.
Each concerto must be viewed on different levels, always with the accompaniment. The choice by Mozart (no oboes, no trumpets) and the sparseness of Nielsen's is seemingly each a perfect compliment for the activity of the clarinet.
As Mozart favored the interval of the third in his concerto, Nielsen begins by favoring the fifth, but then departs into various unstable leaps. Perhaps audiences in 1928 were not ready for this, as the first reviews were lukewarm at best. However, times and the taste of the public have changed.
Both Mozart and Nielsen wrote works which were very modern and forshadowing of new trends in music. Today, both works still remain as major musical statements, thought by many to be the apex of their life's work...GBK
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2003-07-15 04:43
I guess I agree with Don, the Nielsen Concerto is a lousy song.
(1) It doesn't have any lyrics about suicide, lovin', divorce, or pickup trucks,
(2) The Dixie Chicks have never recorded it,
(3) You can't really hum its melody,
(4) It has too many weird chords for the guitar player.
(5) You can't do a line dance to it.
(6) You have to wait a l-o-n-g time between beer breaks.
(7) You can't avoid it by going to the john. It'll still playing when you get back.
However, it does improve with alcohol.
Best regards,
jn
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Author: diz
Date: 2003-07-15 04:59
LOL @ jn - yes, a nice Margaret River Shiraz, some crackers, cheese and sliced pear would go very nicely with the Nielsen.
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Author: theclarinetist
Date: 2003-07-15 06:17
jn,
I was so excited to read that someone might actually agree with me, but you quickly crushed that hope (though I will agree that it improves with alcohol!) =-)
Do you have any actual opinions about the piece?
Don
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Author: Brent
Date: 2003-07-15 13:25
I'm really trying to picture the kind of line dance you could do to the Nielsen...'twouldn't look much like the electric slide, i'd wager.
Liquorice, you mention the Hakan Rosengren recording of this piece. I'll be on the lookout for this. I've only heard two recordings of the Nielsen--Benny Goodman's and Stan Drucker's. Each interesting in it's way (Stan's tonguing is quite amazing!) but neither is the embodiment of the sonic "picture" in my mind.
I'd love to perform the piece myself sometime, but finding a willing audience (of any size) is no small task here in small-town middle America...
Brent
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2003-07-15 13:40
I think the last page of the Nielsen is one of the greatest in all of the repetoire for any instrument. It has a very haunting quality and in a fine performance is very effective. As a background to the thoughts above its really important to find a well played version. The Aage Oxenvad version is very musical, and so is Cahusac's.
The Drucker is very good, but he steers a very straight course. I do like Drucker's playing at the ending. Alot of players try to perform this music and come no where near the mark.
His Wind Quintet is incredible music as well......give it a try!
David Dow
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2003-07-15 15:09
D Dow wrote: "The Aage Oxenvad version is very musical, and so is Cahusac's."
Have you really heard Aage Oxenvad play the concerto??? Or are you thinking of his recording of the Quintet?
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2003-07-15 16:16
I have an exerpt of the Oxenvad concerto from an aircheck on Danish Radio, it lasts about the last 3 or 5 minutes and I taped it about 10 years ago....
David Dow
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Author: rbell96
Date: 2003-07-15 17:27
David,
Is there anyway I could get to hear this recording of Oxenvad?
Thanks,
Rob Bell
Post Edited (2003-07-15 17:29)
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2003-07-16 05:30
Dear Rob:
At the moment I was just looking around for this tape from a Danish Radio broadcast made in the late 80s and cannot find it...I do remember the sound being quite scratchy however, the playing was pretty nice.
I am not sure but Danish Radio may have this available on Cd but it was only an aircheck as far as the broadcaster knew/.
David Dow
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Author: diz
Date: 2003-07-16 06:11
Has anyone heard Nielsen's 4th Symphony - it's wonderful - complete with duelling timpani in the last movement.
Det Uudslukelige | The Inextinguishable
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2003-07-16 13:23
diz- yes I agree about Nielsen's 4th symphony. I also love his 5th and 6th symphonies. The 5th has a very prominent clarient and side drum part, and reminds one of the clarient concerto in some places.
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2003-07-16 18:20
The 2cd is really fine as well, and fun to play! I know the 5th is one of the nastier bits, and years ago in international youth orchestra this one kept me up at night practicing!
David Dow
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Author: Ken Shaw ★2017
Date: 2003-07-16 20:11
David -
The Rich Gilbert clarinet discography lists a Musical Heritage Society 78 rpm set of Oxenvad playing the Nielsen Concerto, but Rich told me he had gotten it from a catalog and had never seen or heard it. He thought it was probably an aircheck.
Michael Bryant, who should know, says it's a mistaken entry. The album number for Oxenvad's recording of Serenata in Vano is only a single digit different, and Mike says that's what it is.
The existence of an aircheck is fascinating. When you find it, please let me know.
Clarinet Classics has put out an essential set of the first Nielsen recordings, containing Cahuzac's recording of the Concerto and the Copenhagen Wind Quintet's recording of the Quintet. Oxenvad's playing there is wonderful, and quite unlike that of Cahuzac or Ib Erickson, who make another early recording of the Concerto.
Best regards.
Ken Shaw
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Author: diz
Date: 2003-07-16 22:59
Liquorice - yes - I love 5 and 6 - especially 6 - the last note of the symphony says a lot about Nielsen's (obvioulsy witty) persona. Nothing quite like ending your genre with a fart, I say.
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