 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: HIROSHI
Date: 1999-10-27 02:06
Do you know this treatment? If there is any, please let us know what effect it did on your metal clarinet. I am considering to send my flute to one of them in future.
http://www.onecryo.com/otherapp-music.htm
(There are several home page offering this service other than this.)
Thank you in advance,
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Author: Dee
Date: 1999-10-27 02:59
I heard of it about six years ago. I've never tried it. Some people seem to like the result and others don't. It is of course only for metal instruments.
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Author: jim lande@ erols.com
Date: 1999-10-27 05:32
I know someone who did it with a flute and thought it made
a lot of difference. Do you have to repad afterwards?
If you persue this, please tell us what you learn. I could spare a metal clarinet for experimentation.
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Author: HIROSHI
Date: 1999-10-27 06:25
Jim:
About a week ago,I asked via e-mail to WWandBW if they can offer a cryogenic service to a callichio trumpet I already ordered. If this is possible, I may ask them.
One of the Japanese flute maker MIYAZAWA's subsidiary in U.S. offers this service for any makes of flutes. However Japanese MIYAZAWA replied to me that although they are interested in this there are no people offering this service. I am a little afraid to send my 6000$ SANKYO flute to U.S.
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Author: ron
Date: 1999-10-27 06:39
What is this 'treatment'? I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one who is curious and hasn't heard of cryogenically treating a metal horn.
Ron
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 1999-10-27 12:22
The cryogenic treatment is supposed to realign the atoms in the metal and make the material more favorable to generating good sounds. Go to Altavista advanced and try
cryogenic and music
or something similar and see what pops up.
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Author: Tracy
Date: 1999-10-27 13:23
can you get just your clarinet keys cryogenically treated? it would probably help to tarnish less right?
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Author: Tracy
Date: 1999-10-27 13:23
can you get just your clarinet keys cryogenically treated? it would probably help to tarnish less right?
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 1999-10-27 13:31
Tracy wrote:
<br>-------------------------------
<br>can you get just your clarinet keys cryogenically treated? it would probably help to tarnish less right?
<br>-----
<br>No, it doesn't change the oxidation characteristics - at least I've never heard that claimed.
<br>
<br>Gold (and a few other metals) resist tarnishing to a great degree - you could look into getting your keys gold plated if you're having a real problem with tarnish.
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Author: Kevin Bowman
Date: 1999-10-27 14:43
Cryogenic treatment is something that some saxophonists swear by. The theory goes that this treatment makes the structure of the metal more regular (aligned atoms, etc.) so that the instrument body becomes more vibrant. Untreated (i.e. normal) instrument bodies vibrate sympathetically with the air column but with inconsistencies in the structure, there may be some frequencies with vibrate more or less easily through the horn. By making the metal more homogeneous, all frequencies vibrate with the same ease (or so the theory goes).
Just the body of the horn is treated. All keywork must be removed before treatment, so a re-pad would not be required.
Personally, I'd rather spend my money on a good mouthpiece or on lessons. In my opinion, the treatment is purely a gimmick. Although, I've never heard a before/after comparison, so please do some research and draw your own conclusions. Note that cryogenic treatment will only effect the *tone* of the horn and will do absolutely nothing for the intonation (unless a dimensional change occurs).
Kevin Bowman
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 1999-10-27 15:38
I too am curious about this. I presume the metal body is immersed in a "cryogenic liquid bath", so my first question is "what cryogen?" Going down in boiling point, liquid oxygen would present a fire hazard, so liq. air [20% O2] might be safer, but liq. nitrogen [N2] [nbp about -200 F, I believe] would prob. be used, as liq. Helium, or Hydrogen [as in the space program] would be costly and hard to obtain or handle. I think that liq or solid CO2 wouldn't be regarded as cryogens. Is this an offshoot of the "super-conductivity" research where likely atomic rearrangement does occur? Interesting, and interested, Don
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Author: Kevin Bowman
Date: 1999-10-27 18:36
A couple of sites I found on the matter:
http://www.tecsolv.com/cryo/music.htm
http://www.saxgourmet.com/cryogenic.htm
The first reference contains a price list. $80 for a soprano sax, which is probably the closest thing to a metal clarinet.
The 2nd reference states that "The instrument is gradually cooled (over a period of 24 hours) to approximately -400 degrees F, and then allowed to return to normal temperature gradually (another 24 hours). The saxophone is NOT immersed in liquid nitrogen (this is a dry process) and no damage will occour to lacquered or plated finishes. There is occasionally some loosening of pads and corks."
Also, the process claims to relieve internal _stresses_ in the metal which, I imagine, is a process similar to annealing? Any metalugists out there that might be able to shed some light on this?
A few more hits showed up with a search for "cryogenic saxophone" on Yahoo but I haven't bothered to visit them all. For the record, I'm still skeptical.
Kevin Bowman
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Author: Kevin Bowman
Date: 1999-10-27 18:39
And another question: if this process is performed with all the hardware on the body, what might the process do to components that are _supposed_ to be stressed - like leaf and needle spring? And will it strenghten or weaken the structure of rods, keyplates, etc. (i.e. will it make these components more brittle)?
Kevin Bowman
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Author: Mark Charette, Webmaster
Date: 1999-10-27 19:22
I've done a bit of research on the Web, and find no scientific papers that mention what happens to non-ferrous material.
The papers I have read talk of wear and durability improvements via the trasformation of austenite to martensite - something that won't happen on brass or silver instruments.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 1999-10-27 19:34
I'm with you, Kevin, I tend toward skepticism when I cant figure it out or am dissatisfied with explanations. Recently there have been "magnetic joint-pain" alleviators ,on ESPN, I believe -A great way to throw money away IMHO!!! The -400 F !! Nearly absolute zero! It seems to me that would require H or He evaporative refrigeration and I would sure wonder about damage to the non-brass [perhaps other body metal ?] as you suggested, steel springs and rods, pads? at least by differential contraction etc. Looks like P T Barnum is still with us!! When I can, I'll look into the patent art on cryogenic processes. Don
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 1999-10-27 21:58
A quickee search in USPTO via cryogenic AND steel [using brass or clarinet found nothing] turned up 61 patents, the one of some 6 I looked at briefly that interested me was 5,851,313 which mentioned the forms of steel Mark referred to above. The tenor of these pats was to make steels which could handle the low temps involved in LNG [liquid nat gas -methane] processing which Phillips Pet. [my company] and others practice. These methods applied to metal clars looks like an unwarrented extrapolation without any factual basis. Don
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Author: Hiroshi
Date: 1999-10-28 01:01
This is Miyazawa-America's page describing what were the results of their own experiments.
http://www.miyazawa.com/tech3.htm
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 1999-10-28 01:34
From that page:
"Virtually all the instruments treated have an increased capacity to play softer and louder, by as much as 30%. (This is based on substantial anecdotal evidence, not a decibel meter.) "
db meters are very inexpensive. I wonder why they don't try a simple double blind test ...
Also - 30% is a very strance number to use for acoustics. 3 db difference would be a doubling or halving the power - a 50% difference that would be noticable, but no great shakes.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 1999-10-28 14:45
Mommaq - In our student's terms, that would be real cool, would be somewhat cruel in our terms!! I'll also look up the ref., Mark, and post comments if any. Don
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Author: Kevin Bowman
Date: 1999-10-28 14:59
Thanks for the link, Hiroshi.
The article offers a description of "what it is" but not a satisfactory description of "how it works" or even if it really does work. While trying to explain why it doesn't work on gold the author states "I'm not sure". Mark's comments are thought provoking, too. If only Mr. Benade (the acoustician) were still around to conduct some really useful scientific experiments on this subject!
And if this process can really be proven to work (improve the muscial response of metalic components - as in strings), what next? Who will be the first distributer of cryo treated, silver-plated, bonade inverted ligatures? I wonder what cryo treatment would do to a box of reeds?
I'm still interested in hearing from a metalurgist and may attempt to post a message to an appropriate ng if one exists. All other skeptics, keep posting any new info.
Kevin Bowman
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Author: Kevin Bowman
Date: 1999-10-28 15:43
Just posted a message to sci.physics and sci.chem. I'll collect the feedback and post a summary later.
Kevin Bowman
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 1999-10-28 17:20
Has anyone had contacts with Miyazawa Flutes, Coralville, IA? [Iowa City, U of IA!] Their's is a very interesting [somewhat evasive] writeup, speaking of cryo-improvement of steels [aus. to mart. grain structure as you pointed out, Mark] and extrapolating to other metals at liq.N2 temps. Did some patent searching to no avail. My metallurgy is too old to help, but I'm sure it and I know cryogenics are authoritatively discussed in the McGraw-Hill and Kirk-Othmer chem-tech ency's. available in a good-sized library for our researchers [who have the time!]. Don
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 1999-10-28 19:25
Well, I just knew there had to be some patent art on the subject. Searched [IBM] for cryogenic AND metal AND nitrogen, finding inter-alia US 3,891,477 [expired] which may be a [the?] pioneer pat in this small field! It well describes the process [which we guessed at], for steel and Fe's. Of the 11 pats referencing it, only one [so far] even mentions non-ferrous metals. This does lend some credence to their claims. Will pursue. I enjoy the "thrill of the chase"!! Don
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Author: Duvid Smering
Date: 1999-10-29 02:22
I met a flute tech who worked for Powell some years ago . He said Powell has been cyro-treating flutes for over 20 years.
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Author: jim lande@ erols.com
Date: 1999-10-29 04:28
I went to the first URL that Hiroshi, and, after two e-mails learned that they would do a metal clarinet for $45 plus return shipping. It will take me a while, but I know I
have two metal clarinets the same model. I will have to
repad them the same and then get one treated. If I am fool enough to buy more than a dozen metal clarinets, then I can invest an addition $55. (My kids would say: maybe you will get lucky, the package will get lost in the mail, and you can collect the insurance.)
Expect a report back sometime next year.
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Author: mike
Date: 1999-10-29 05:55
taking the horn down to almost absolute zero is a feat in itself......Nitrogen (liquid ) is not that cold, .....
annealing is the process of heating metal just prior to deforming and then air cooling ( ie: I work extensivly with copper...after it ages, it hardens and becomes brittle...at this stage of its life, it can not be flared effectivly, If I need to shape it with out cracking it, I would heat until it is cherry ( red hot, an orange colour) and then let it cool...it will then shape as desired including making a solid flare connection....) other metals work simular, to get the temper back, while it is hot cool with oil bath..
as far as cryogenics work, I can not remember the temp range that is classified as cryo....could find out if you want..
email homeworksltd@4state.com
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Author: jim lande@ erols.com
Date: 1999-10-29 13:11
which raises an interesting question. Is it possible that
the process would make keys harder to bend but more brittle?
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Author: Don Poulsen
Date: 1999-10-29 15:30
Regarding Don Berger's last post, a mention in a patent does not necessarily lend much credence to a process. From my experience, patents are written to cover as much territory as possible, so non-ferrous metals may have been inserted into one of the patent's claims to get rights to the process in case there was some value to it. Show me a technical paper or article to convince me that something works.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 1999-10-29 16:26
Well now, a patent, particularly in the US, IS a technical publication {its a sin to tell a lie, which is why, an obvious, perpetual motion "invention" has never been patented - a working model may still be required at the examiner's discretion!!]. The claims are the legal "teeth" and must be borne out by the "specification" and examples therein. I call attention to the earlier-found patent, 3,891,477, where the cooled metal is slowly "dunked" in liq. N2 [about -195 C, -320 F, or more realistically, +78 Kelvin, the latter temp. scale based on absolute zero where all atomic/molecular motion ceases]. Searching farther, I found 4,739,622 which seems to describe the exact process of the Miyazawa method, issued to Cryogenics Inter. of Tempe, AZ. It appears that the only claimed uses apply to steel alloys, with allowable "expansion" in the spec. and abstract to other materials. A search as above described substituting "brass" or "Nickel-silver" for "steel", found nothing. I am sufficiently curious, and will procure several of the related patents [as I have done in my pat. career] for study. At this time, my take of all this is that, yes, metal "grain" structure is modified by low temp. exposure , similar to high "tempering" of iron [group]-based alloys, but so far I have found no evidence to support similar modification of other metals, or non-metals. Even if there is such, I would doubt that any improvements to musical "characteristics" could be claimed without acoustic testing. Beware of ad-hype, caveat-emptor. Wow, what a dissertation, my apologies, Don
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Author: Willie
Date: 1999-10-30 04:42
Wow this is gettin' interesting. Maybe there's hope for all those lightnig rods in my closet after all. If somebody with identical clarinets like Jim did have this done to one of his clarinets, it would be interesting to subject both to some high tech acoustic test equipment before and after freezing so check results. Just let it warm up a tad before putting your lips on it.
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Author: HIROSHI
Date: 1999-10-30 15:57
Lppking at a company called Bras Bow, I found several top brass players are praizing this treatment and a little more process description.
http://www.thebrassbow.com/brassbw1.htm
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 1999-10-30 16:38
Hiroshi, the more I read the less impressed I am with any of these companies, at least when they resort to some "pseudo-science". While I'm not disputing some effect, not <b>one</b> so far offers any technical papers for non-ferrous materials. So far it's all "voodoo science" - it doesn't mean that something _doesn't_ happen, but I'd feel a lot more comfortable if they just said "We've got no real idea what's happening at the molecular or atomic level, but here's some before & after frequency plots on this horn". There's plenty of phenomena with no scientific explanation _at the moment_, but at least the results are well documented and repeatable, not just anecdotal results.
If I took a clarinet, removed the pads, froze it, then repadded it - would the difference in sound later be due to the freezing or the repadding? It's hard to know. We'd have to make a clarinet with no pads (the range would be a bit limited!), freeze it, and then try it to eliminate the pads being the cause.
Again - this freezing thing _seems_ like it would do something to metal instruments (or plastic, as your last reference says), but I've yet to read anything that explains non-ferrous changes.
Cheers,
Mark C.
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Author: jim lande@ erols.com
Date: 1999-10-31 03:46
the company said that you do not need to remove keys or
pads (but sometimes pads fall out after treatment.)
Obviously, if it hard to tell the difference between wood
and plastic as a material for clarinets, then it seems
unlikely that slightly different metal composition will make any difference whatsoever.
Given that reed and setup are so important in sound, I
suspect also that attempts a scientific measurement would be satisfactory without a whole lot of careful thought.
As to testimonials: I believe they mostly demonstrate the Hawthorn effect -- sometimes change makes things seem better. (The original experiments at the Western Electric Plant in Hawthorn, showed that installing brighter lights improved productivity. Being scientists, they reversed the effect to see if producivity went down. Nope, went up some more.) My point is that as long as freezing produces any noticable effect -- and likely even if it produces none -- somebody will think the horns are improved.
Brass instruments would lend themselves more to double bline experiments than clarinets. Perhaps Lelia, who lurks on the trumpet web sites, can talk some of those folks into spending some money.
None of this is to say that I won't invest $50 in the interest of science (and to justify having two of the same model). But I would not claim that this would be real science. (Of course, I am an economist, and not too much of what I do full time is real science, either.)
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 1999-10-31 15:10
A well taken point, Jim, re: effect of change! My observation [without study] of psychology, tells me that the same effect comes from any research effort, also none of us would like to admit to having spent money foolishly, as on a scam!!! Off hand, I should think, that if this low-temp treatment does any good, a great application would be to the saxophones of "classical" players, where "dark", mellow sound [like the Amherst Sax Quartet this AM on CBS Sun. Morn. - great!] is highly desired, if the refrigerator is large enough! Maybe some of us can discuss this on the Chat this PM. Interesting! Don
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Author: paul
Date: 1999-11-02 21:38
I've heard of the same stuff that Mark C. has heard about more or less cryo annealing steel into a different composition, austenite to martensite, or something like it. It's supposed to make the steel item much more preditcable for large variations of harmonic waves. The test was run with some scientific rigor, but I don't believe it was run long enough for statistical significance. I also don't know if the cryo items were statistically compared to items modified by more ordinary means to take out the same large variations of harmonic waves.
Bottom line, I don't yet believe that cryo treatment of steel or principally ferrous metal items is worth the expense.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 1999-11-02 23:09
Paul,
According to the literature I read cryogenic treatment of steel does change its hardness, ductility, and durability. The changes are measurable. It's only been in the non-ferrous area that I've drawn a blank.
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Author: Jerry
Date: 1999-11-03 00:16
Today's New York Times reported this article: "For the Musical Alchemist, a New Tack: Cryogenics." See their web page:
http://search.nytimes.com/search/daily/bin/fastweb?getdoc+site+iib-site+30+0+wAAA+cryogenics
FYI. (You may have to register to read the article.)
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 1999-11-03 00:41
Interesting article, but sheds no light on the matter. Why don't they publish the double blind results? A lot of "I believe"s.
The article goes on to say
'As a result, about 45 instruments have been frozen, and while results were not uniform, many musicians described the sound as "richer" and "more focused" and the instruments as having "easier response." '
How many musicians? 5? 10? 40?
This article was reasonably well balanced, but the statements such as the one above need to be read with a "raised eyebrow". I have an open mind about the treatment (something probably does happen) but there should be more openess when the proponents discuss it.
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