 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: trampoline
Date: 2003-07-05 08:51
I recently got an old Noblet that hasn't been treated very nice over the years. The wood is a little moldy, some of the mildew has embedded itself into the body rings, the keys are all tarnished, the pads are shot, and one of the tenons is chipped.
I went to a few repair techs and their prices ranged from 400-600 dollars for getting it into playing condition. That seemed like a little much, so I figured I'd just do it m'self.
I've so far managed to remove all of the keys and rods, and one of the screws from the thumb rest (the other one just won't budge GRR, any advice on getting it loose?), but I'm not sure how to remove the rod post things and body rings - am I supposed to remove them?
To clean the keys, I was thinking of putting them into tarnish remover. And for the body, through a search I read that dipping it into a solution of 10% bleach and 90% water to get rid of the mold - are these good things to do?
I think I want to try padding and corking (or string wrapping!) it myself, too. But I'm not sure if the needle and flat springs can be saved - they're really rusty and some of them are bent. I think I'll probably just have those replaced while I have a tech reassemble it (how much do those usually cost, anyway?)
Does anyone have any advice on what I should do? Thanks a lot!
Sam
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Author: jbutler ★2017
Date: 2003-07-05 12:25
Sam,
Not to burst your "bubble" here or anything, but if you brought it to me to "reassemble" I would still charge you for a full overhaul. Now that may sound a little cruel to you, but there are procedures in an overhaul that must be done in order to warranty the instrument. I would have to make sure by performing them myself. Perhaps you should be clear about the cost of "assembly" by your repair tech. You may not be saving much.
jbutler
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-07-05 13:07
Why remove any parts without a good reason?
The assembly is a hundred times easier than all the other issues you will have to face. Assembly would take perhaps 10 minutes. Then it would have to be disassembled to correct all the things that needed correcting before assembly. It is very likely that amateur pad replacement, spring replacement, and a host of other items would have to be RE-done by the technician to make the instrument playable. I agree completely with jbutler.
My advice on how to go about what you mention, covering all the problems you will probably encounter, would need scores of pages.
Although I offer a lot of repair assistance for DIY owners in this forum, I am not willing to give a complete apprenticeship!
And that is precisely what you are asking for.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2003-07-05 13:46
Afraid I have to agree with the above experts. Moldy wood sounds ominous if it really is moldy...and maybe starting to rot. Sounds like a waste of time all things considered. If you really want to do technician type work start with something that isn't such a mess and don't completely disassemble it first shot out of the box.
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Author: Terry Horlick
Date: 2003-07-05 14:41
Trampoline,
That sounds like fun, and a great way to learn about the clarinet. Get a Feree's catalogue and order up some pads, springs, shellac etc. and have yourself a ball.
You didn't say whether this horn was purchased for you to play around with without any loss when it gets damaged or if you plan on using it as your player horn. If you really want a good player then I suggest sending it to someone competant... the best I have found so far is JButler. Although you may cringe at the cost of the overhaul with JB, shop around and you will find his are below average for a top notch job.
For any tech to offer his services to overhaul a horn which has been experimented upon by the owner goes beyond the call of duty in my opinion.
If you find yourself to be an excellent repair person you will end up with a playable horn. I have done this and find you can do as well yourself as many professional repair persons. What you will find, however, is that the best folks in the repair business will not only put the horn together so it will toot, they will "voice" it. Suddenly it plays closer to proper intonation throughout the horn, all the notes pop out with the same effort, the tone of the horn is optimized in all registers... in short there is a difference between an amateur repair, a tech's rebuild, and an expert tech's full overhaul. Nothing is wrong with any of the above approaches, as long as you understand what your goal is and remember on an amateur repair you generally get what you pay for (professional work can be have quality unrealted to the prices charged in my experience... so ask around for referrals if you want a top-notch job).
IMHO TH
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Author: Fred
Date: 2003-07-05 14:50
One thing that rings clear to me is that a good overhaul is worth the price that a good technician charges to do it. Unfortunately, not all clarinets are worth the price of that good overhaul. That seems to be the situation that Sam is in.
Sam, I'd chalk that acquisition up to the cost of a learning experience. Your $400-600 could buy you a much better clarinet in good playing condition. And if you want to try your hand at the overhaul, you first have to acquire the pads, springs, corks, and tools needed to do it. You probably won't find these items that easy to come by piece at a time. You probably need a good book on repair too. Add all these things up and you'll see that what you have is an almost no-win situation - unless you are the sort that just enjoys tinkering with things to see what makes them tick. If so, you can entertain yourself for many hours for only $100-200.
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Author: Mark P. Jasuta
Date: 2003-07-05 16:34
Sam,
I think you can learn a lot with this horn. I do not think it is that far gone. The reason is that you got it apart. I have had horns come in where I had to spent days removing stuck rusted screws etc. For your purposes, if the springs are still springy just clean them and wipe on a thin coat of oil to prevent further rusting. "The Doctor" who is a member of this board has some great products to take care of the wood. He can help you in this area. (The wood is probably just dirty.) As far as the actual pad replacement, get a repair book, Ferree's is a good source, and study it, and make sure you understand the methods and processes before you touch that clarinet again. If you have questions ask. When the smoke clears you could come away with a playable horn and a new skill. Good luck.
P.S.
One rule I learned when I worked as a mechanic is, "Never disassemble any more than absolutely necessary."
Best Regards
Mark
Post Edited (2003-07-05 17:13)
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2003-07-05 16:47
Hi,
I think an old expression that my Dad, a physician used to use is appropriate here. He said "I get the big bucks as a doctor because I know what not to do just as much as I know what to do." The experienced tech knows what not to do and I expect that if you proceed with the project, you'll learn as well.
I do think Fred has it right when he said "you can entertain yourself for many hours for only $100-200." Maybe weeks and even months as well.
A good repair book is a must and I'll bet you can do most of the work without too many special tools (but a long, small-bladed screw-driver as well as a spring/crochet hook are musts). To check the pad seating, I use an old hemostat - thanks, Dad - and thin tissue paper strips.
The supplies are reasonably priced but the ability to do it all with precision is an art!
HRL
Post Edited (2003-07-05 20:24)
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Author: Bob A
Date: 2003-07-05 18:07
Hey tramp, on some Garage walls I've seen a sign that lists the shop rates for repairs:
Shop Rate $40.00 per hour, $60 dollars an hour if you have worked on it yourself. Sound familar.
Bob A
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Author: trampoline
Date: 2003-07-05 19:34
"Shop Rate $40.00 per hour, $60 dollars an hour if you have worked on it yourself." ^___^
I'm sorry - I guess my motivation for wanting to do the repairs probably didn't come out so well.
I already have a nicely playing Selmer Prologue II, which I love, but I figured that winning a nice cheap clarinet on ebay and then getting it overhauled (mind: I didn't realise how much it would cost to get it overhauled) would provide a nice cheap way of getting a decent back up horn. As might be apparent to most of you already, I make a lot of naive assumptions.
Since there isn't really much I can do with it now, I figured I'd turn it into a learning experience (or.. more so) and play around with it a little. Not like it'd be any less useful to me if I hit it with a hammer, anyway.
As for my wanting to have a tech reassemble it - to me it seemed a lot more daunting than the dipping and scrubbing and gluing I was at first planning to do. But I'm sure with enough time I can figure it out, then = )
That said, I do understand what jbutler and Gordon are saying - that I'll most likely do more harm than good, but if I can come out of this knowing a few things about fixin' (or, as it might turn out, breakin') a clarinet, it'll definitely be worth it for me.
This to me seems like a great opportunity to do some tinkering where I really don't have much to lose but some free time. Maybe some tools and books might not be such a bad investment, though. Heck, I could even get good at this! = D
It seems like this endeavor could be an all around rewarding experience. Being able to get it tootin' would be a nice, big, shiny golden star sticker, though.
Thanks to everyone who replied!
Sam
Post Edited (2003-07-05 19:42)
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2003-07-05 20:12
A shrewd observation, Bob A, I'd add the lawyer's comment "He who defends himself has a FOOL for a client". So now, may I join you as an unabashed "character of our beloved BBoard" please!! Having several understanding, competent, repairer-friends, I do at times get into deeper, hot water where a small screwdriver, key oil, needle-nosed pliers, a few pads and cement are just not sufficient. Bail-out necessary. Therefore, recommendation: learn [Simple "Gifts"] on horns of little value, OK, not on the good ones. Most techs will appreciate your suggesting what MAY be wrong, but avoid telling them how to fix it!! Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: jbutler ★2017
Date: 2003-07-05 20:44
Trampoline,
I don't think you've got a bad idea, just know what you're getting into. Weigh the pro's and con's, expense of it, etc. I took a mower to get repaired and the man told me up front it wasn't worth fixing. It would cost $200 to fix it up and he had used ones for sale for $150. It is self propelled and doesn't anymore, along with a bent shaft. Okay, I'm going to detach the gear drive and beat on the shaft to even it up a bit and use it anyway...just push the darned thing until I get tired of it. Am I a lawn more fixin' expert?...NO! But I'll either use it or abuse it. It doesn't have any value as it is, so I feel that there is no loss in trying.
jbutler
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Author: Terry Horlick
Date: 2003-07-05 21:49
Sam,
Thanks for the clarification. There is no disgrace in changing your intentions from creating a Phoenix clarinet from the Noblet ashes to educating yourself on clarinet repair... and gaining valuable insight into maintenance of your Selmer.
Since you now are concentrating on your home learn by doing clarinet construction course you have earned the right to an answer to the question you orriginally posed, viz: how the posts can be removed. I believe they are right hand threaded wood screws. You can grasp them with pliers or vice grips... doing this will give you the chance to learn about how inappropriate tools ( such as pliers and vice grips) can bugger up the surface of a finely turned post and smash the milled in key mechanism bearing surface... and just unscrew them. You may be lucky enough to smash the threaded hole and have an opportunity to learn how to use a threading tap!
Along the way you will lean that you don't have to completely tear down the horn... maybe leaving the posts in place. You will learn how to fill in the wood to repair stripped holes for the posts you have removed. You will learn how difficult it is to properly align a post which has been messed with. You will learn that most the the springs are tapered and can be pushed out of their posts for replacement. You will learn that there is no joy like driving a needle spring 3/4" into your index finger while "cleaning" your horn.
I will now remove my tongue from my cheek... go for it, I am on your side. Experiment, look into techniques like swedging keys to tighten them up. Look over the steels you remove... you will see how easy it is to replace them with steel rod using a jewlers saw and a threading die. Test out the stick-on pads, and fiddle around with shellac and cement.
I still strongly recommend a Feree's catalogue.
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2003-07-05 22:35
Sam, I think you have a real humdinger of an instrument to learn about repadding/overhauling a clarinet.
I say...Go for it!!!
To help you along...if you:
1) promise to see the project to the end
2) order a free Ferree's catalog for parts, etc., AND
2) give at least a weekly update on the BB as to how you're doing...
I will send you, absolutely free of charge, Lawrence Frank's "Clarinet, Saxophone & Flute Repair Manual" which will give "you step by step directions for overhauling your instrument".
Just send me an personal email with your address and I'll send it off Tuesday morning.
I think there would be a fair number of people interested in your project and especially your observations and difficulties as you go along.
How about it??? Are you in for the long haul???
Dan
ddshusta@yahoo.com
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-07-06 00:31
Terry Horlick. What a wonderful post. Both informative and humorous. So very thorough, yet at the same time only touching the surface. A masterpiece of irony.
Go for it, Trampoline. I launched into a career as a repair technician from tackling my own run-over Haynes flute.
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Author: trampoline
Date: 2003-07-06 01:24
I've just e-mailed Kate for the catalog. = )
Thanks Terry for the help. That's really interesting; I always thought they were glued on. And I've already come pretty close to sticking myself with the needle springs a few times. Nothing worthy yet of a tetanus shot, though.
Dan - wow, that's really nice of you. Sure, I'll work on it to the very end; I'm sure it'll be a lot of fun. And I'd be more'n happy to give at least weekly updates. I can even take pictures and upload them if anybody's interested. I'll e-mail you then in a bit.
Definitely in it for the long haul - really interested in seeing what the end result of beating on my mower will be.
Sam
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Author: jbutler ★2017
Date: 2003-07-06 02:21
BTW I got my lawn mower running this afternoon, complete with the "self propulsion". I won't tell you how I did it though. I will say it only took me about 15 minutes with my "Serbian adjustment tool", sometimes known in other parts of the world as a "Tootsie". A far cry from the $200 the repairer wanted, but not for the faint of heart. Now, Sam, there is your inspiration!
jbutler
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Author: Terry Horlick
Date: 2003-07-06 03:37
John,
I know what a bang-up job you did on tuning my clarinets, now let us know how well you tune a lawn mower! Then when you're done treat yourself to some sushi... Tuna-fish of course!
TH
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Author: ron b
Date: 2003-07-06 06:14
Let that be an example to all of us:
...two percent know-how, the rest -- sheer determination 
John Butler style!!!
Way t' go, John ![[whoa]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie10.gif)
- rb -
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Author: chicagoclar
Date: 2003-07-07 09:44
I actually did the same thing that you are contemplating. I took my Noblet apart and overhauled it. I made new pads and adjusted everything. It actually took me the most amount of time to clean the instrument. The nice thing for me was that it was during a woodwind instrument repair class that I took. I learned a lot about how the clarinet works and also that I hate making pads. I'm much happier ordering them. Now, I have the daunting task of overhauling my roomate's "Ebay" oboe. There's a task!!!!
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Author: Mark P. Jasuta
Date: 2003-07-07 12:50
I started collecting clarinets when my now 14 year old daughter first took up the clarinet (she is currently working on K622) Most of the clarinets I bought from ebay because I can do whatever work they need. Buyer beware rules still apply. (Just bought a Buffet LP with wrap around register key and without the dreaded donut key.)
The point is, a vast majority of the clarinets on ebay need work. Anything from a minor adjustment to a major overhaul, and some are just not repairable. If you can do the work yourself, there are some great deals to be had. If you can't I would strongly recommend that you avoid ebay all together, except to acquire a cheap clarinet to learn clarinet repair on.
Regards
Mark
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Author: hans
Date: 2003-07-08 01:48
Sam,
Your post reminded me of the time (many years ago) when I replaced all the pads on my Selmer Mark VI tenor sax. When I got it back together....surprise! It wouldn't play! After looking for leaks with a light and making some adjustments it was no better. Rebuilding the transmission on my Ferguson 20-85 tractor had been easier.
The repair tech had to replace all the pads and undo everything I had done. It was not cheap, but fortunately he knew what he was doing and made my sax as good as new (maybe even better).
Since I try to learn from my blunders, I put instrument repair on my "never again" list. Now my policy is: if it's very important, leave it for a professional.
Best wishes,
Hans
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