 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Vick
Date: 2003-06-28 03:59
I had a lesson yesterday with my clarinet professor. I went in search for some help of tonguing and my tone. I left thinking I knew how to do it. But, today while looking through the material she gave me, I didn't get it anymore. Everything grew into frustration! I know I must not be frustrated. I just don't understand how I could have played like this for this period of time. I always get high in every single try-out, audition kind of stuff. But how?!?! I was not worthy. I really need help in improving these things. I think that I use an "ah" kind of sound(and open my throat) when I blow through the clarinet. I also anchor tongue. I try and try to tongue the correct way....but then, I couldn't even find how to do it the correct way. What kind of sound am I supposed to sing while I blow my air? I just need some guidance. Thanks in advance!
-Vicky
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Author: anne
Date: 2003-06-28 06:10
You should be "singing" an "eeee" sound while you blow air. Having your tongue in this position will help improve your tone overall, and will also make it easier to tongue correctly (tip of tongue to tip of reed).
Try not to get too frustrated...we all go through this. Having good tone and technique is a lifelong process! Good luck!
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Author: Vick
Date: 2003-06-28 07:14
what kind of syllable should I use when tonguing staccato notes?
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Author: ron b
Date: 2003-06-28 07:51
I strongly suggest you bring this up at your next lesson, Vicky. Or, maybe you could give her a phone call about it.
During your lesson your teacher will see and hear changes or difficulties you may be having in your playing that are impossible for us out here to know. She's far more able to direct your progress one-on-one than anyone here can by reading about it. It's not that we're not interested, I'm sure most of us are vitally interested in your progress - it's just difficult, if not impossible, to help someone by 'long distance'.
We're all eager to help, as evidenced by the responses so far. But your teacher is your primary guide.
Just curious (and interested), how long have you been playing?
- r![[cool]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/cool.gif) n b -
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2003-06-28 13:05
Langenus, p. 22, no. 11 "3 studies for acquiring a light staccato"
Take twice daily at 1/8 note = 116 BPM
SINGLE tongue ala rapidamente
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Author: BobD
Date: 2003-06-28 15:39
Personally I think the best way to execute tongueing is to put as little of the mouthpiece in your mouth as possible. In fact you might start with not even enough mouthpiece to get any musical sound and then gradually move more of the mp into your mouth.
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Author: Bob Schwab
Date: 2003-06-28 15:56
Not to mess anyone up but I remember reading an interview with Pete Fountain in where he was asked how he got his "fat" tone. He responded that he got it by keeping his throat open. How can you keep your throat open and play by "singing" an eee? I think that would tend to close your throat that way. Am I confused about something?
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Author: Vick
Date: 2003-06-28 17:30
Thanks everyone for your advice. Last night I stayed up looking for some guidance. I seem to have found a comfortable tonguing procedure. Ron b, I have been playing the clarinet for almost 8 years. I just graduated from high school and will be a music major in college. I was even second in state this past year, and it is a mystery to me. I used to know how to do everything the "correct" way. It just seemed to have gone away from me. I think I got too used to playing with more of a jazz style because this year we played Blue Shades by Ticheli(I think doing the bends is what made me start saying an "ah" syllable). I am just determined to get into my grove again. Thanks again everyone! And next week in my lesson, I am sure that we will work on this for most of the part!
Vicky
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Author: Benni
Date: 2003-06-28 22:08
Bob -
The way I've been taught is to keep my tounge in an 'e' position, but my throat more open. This way, the sound is a nice, big sound, but not spread (which is what tends to heppen with a low, flat tongue position). So, you can do both things at once, but it takes a while to get used to.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2003-06-28 22:23
Throat and tongue positions are difficult to explain and probably best learned one on one with an instuctor.
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Author: skye
Date: 2003-06-28 22:53
Kell staccato studies lol. I was also using anchor tonguing, my new teacher has made me change that, and my tonguing has improved a fair bit, I have set the metronome and put it up a notch when I can. If I don't do it for a couple of days though, it slips right back.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2003-06-29 13:47
The tongue is mostly muscle so it stands to reason that regular exercise would be helpful......use it or lose it
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Author: DezzaG
Date: 2003-06-29 14:14
So people really think you should have their tongue higher, therefore not persuading an open/warm sound...hmmm no wonder a lot of people sound strained. I always think low tongue with tip of it slightly bending up, helps tonguing and also makes sure you don't play too sharp. I agree with Pete Fountain, I remember the days when I had to pull out so much at the barrel as I strained so hard, thankfully I have learnt to relax my throat. A good test is to see if you can blow a concert Bflat on just the mouthpiece. Just my 2 cents!
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2003-06-29 20:19
If I understand the word anchor tonguing right it means that the tongue hits the reed 1/2-1 cm from the tip of the tongue. The sides of the tongue have no connection with the upper teeth like in "eeeee" but rest along the sides of the lower teeth. The move of the tongue when tonguing would sound like "oyoyoyoy" instead of "dededede".
If so, I've been anchor tonguing all my life and have had no problems with that. I've had a pretty straight career since I finished my studies and have been working as a professional clarinetist for 23 years now and this has never been an issue. I just don't understand the discussion. Why is it that you in the US claims that this is wrong when as I understand it it's very common here in Europe, specially in Germany. I took a few lessons with Karl Leister many years ago and we both agreed that when tonguing like this you get the best control over different kinds of attacks, specially in very soft dynamics from a no tongue at all kind of attack to very light attacks to hardest possible. When tip tonguing there is only one kind of attack, you take the tongue off the reed and that's it. Where is the spectrum of variation? When doing it the other way you can choose between using only the very edge of the reed lightly to stopping the reed completely.
What I often hear with people tonguing "normally" in soft dynamics is the attack coming first and shortly after comes the sound. It seems like it's difficult to do "a niente" with a "normal" attack as well as light bouncing scales required in Mozart a.o. To me it very often sounds to much like a machine gun (very exagerated, no offense). I'm not saying that everybody sounds like this and I'm very much awere of the fact that most of the finest clarinet players in the US are tip tonguing but it seems like tonguing like that has it's own problems and I've never had any problems "anchor tonguing" so what is usually considered the problems with that?
Alphie
Post Edited (2003-06-29 20:21)
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Author: Dee
Date: 2003-06-29 20:23
Anchor tonguing is when you keep the tip of the tongue "locked in place" behind the bottom teeth and tongue with a portion of the tongue other than the tip. From your description, I'm not sure if you are describing the same thing.
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2003-06-29 21:59
Dee, if you're talking to me, my tip of the tongue is usually placed behind the bottom teeth. Not "locked in place" but lightly supporting the rest of the tongue to move forth and back lightly touching the reed 1/2 cm from the tip.
Is that anchor tonguing?
In Europe this is just two ways of tonguing when you play the clarinet. None of them is considered wrong and both have advantages and disadvantages.
Alphie
Post Edited (2003-06-29 22:19)
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Author: Vick
Date: 2003-06-29 23:19
Alphie, yes that is how I tongue. I used to believe that I could live with tonguing that way. I have a super fast tongue too. But, it all came to a reality when I could hear different styles of attacts. Maybe if I learn to control my anchor tonguing, then I'll be fine. I think tonguing should be determined by how comforable you are/accuracy/speed. hehe, I wished I lived in Europe! It's just everywhere I turn, someone is telling my to tongue with the tip. What if I am not meant to tongue with the tip?? I am going to go work on this! Have a nice day everyone!
-Vicky
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Author: Sarah Beth
Date: 2003-06-30 03:23
Your tongue should be resting in its natural position, right atop your bottom teeth, for starters. While tonguing, your tongue should stay in this general position, as if its "lazy"...Simply move it back and forth in the smallest of motions, infact play a little game with yourself and try to see how little you can move your tongue, in order to tongue....this will speed up your tonguing immensely, and REALLY help with the sound. What should not be happening, is for your tongue to be flinging back into your throat each and every time you tongue...you can only imagine how much that slows people down and I think that's what anchor tonguing is.
Being a victim of anchor tongueing for YEARS, and finally learning the right way to tongue, has helped me come to this conclusion....it is VITAL to open up the back of your throat for a nice tonguing sound, ESPECIALLY as you reach the high registers....open it up so much that you can feel the pitches...that probably makes NO sense to anyone...its a sensation I cant describe, but only feel when I really open up my throat...give it a try, it feels weird at first but,its great once u master the whole movement and feeling...I hope this helps a bit.
Sarah
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Author: DezzaG
Date: 2003-06-30 08:43
A few of my students I have picked up anchor tongue(slowing fixing it), to me it sounds like a K sound rather than a clear crisp T sound when they tongue, thats why I want them to fix it (plus the fact they can't tongue as fast!)
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2003-06-30 16:03
If they are tonguing against the palate you shuld change that immeditely. But why do you necessarily want what you discribe as a "crisp" T sound. When I read that, I don't "hear" a sound that pleases my ear. Can they still produce a "Dee" sound when their attack is ready? or a "Thee" sound if required? Or a "Zee", "See" "Hee" or "Lee" sound for that matter?
What I'm saying is that if there is something obviously wrong like tonguing to the palate, you have to do something. But there are many different ways to produse an attack on a clarinet. Tip tonguing as I understand is the overall rule in the US is only one way. I use that sometimes if I want that kind of attack. Than we have what you call anchor tonguing, a term that I only heard from Americans but never in Europe. I still don't know if what I discribe in my earlier posts ot this matter about myself is what you call anchor tonguing, I think it comes close from other peoples description, but the tecnique I use normally gives me a great variaty of different attacks and I haven't got any big problems with speed. So why is it that fearful among American teachers? Is it just tradition? Have you thaught it over carefully and come to a conviction about it?
Think it over and answer, please.
Alphie
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Author: graham
Date: 2003-07-01 12:35
Alphie: Do you happen to know whether other celebrated German players use your approach? In particular I am interested in Dieter Klocker and Sabine Meyer. Please let us know if you know.
One of the things that concerns me about articulation, particulalrly by British players, is that the note often sounds like it starts in a different tonal spectrum to that into which it settles an instant later. This can create a spitty unsettled effect. It is worth noting that British players 1900 - 1940 tended not to have this affliction, and from the listening I have done to German players, they also seem to be able to start the note as a pure note, where the tone is the same throughout its duration. I prefer that on the whole.
Also, what about the question of stopping the sound? Other than in a running stacatto passage, do you tend to stop the sound with the tongue or leave it to the air? In Alphie's case, how well does your approach to articulation allow this (if you do it at all)?
Hope you can give some guidance.
graham
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Author: Alphie
Date: 2003-07-01 22:06
graham, I can't name any specific German players for sure other than Karl Leister who is using a similar tonguing tecnique as I do. At least that's what we noticed many years ago at a master class. For Klöcker or Meyer I honestly don't know. Sabine Meyer is a student of Hans Deinzer's who also taught my colleague who is using a similar tecnique. Don't know if he got it from Deinzer.
The main thing as I know the European teaching is that nobody asks how you tongue as long as it sounds fine and the speed is ok. Another colleague of mine tongues from right to left in fast passages and it sounds fabulous. Like that he can play 16th in 160-170. Another person I know uses the bottom side of the tongue. Her reflex is better like that. She sounds great. Tonguing is a very personnal thing. I get no speed tip to tip tonguing. I know that from playing the recorder for many years. In all fast passages I had to double tongue. With my tecnique on clarinet, if that's anchor tonguing, I don't have that problem.
For people who have the string underneath the tongue grown too close to the tip it's impossible to tip tongue, why they have to use another tecnique. I don't have that problem but I know two people who have that and they are using a similar tecnique as mine.
As for British players I haven't made your observation. If something changed around 1940 maybe Reginald Kell had something to do with that. As I believe he was very resolute in his teaching so maybe some influence had this effect on some in the generation that followed.
About stopping the sound my approach allows both a sudden stop with the tongue and a gradual fade out. Usually I don't use the tongue until the tapering is organic and the air has come to a complete stop. Is that an answer to your question?
Alphie
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