 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: SaRaH18
Date: 2003-06-27 06:52
Hi- I currently bought a transposed piece of the Mozart Concerto written for Bb (with piano accompaniment) and I plan to play it for my audition. What is the diffference if I plan on playing the Mozart concerto in Bb rather than in A? Is it okay for me to play the Bb transposed version for my audition?
Is there a difference to the sound quality?
I just want your opinion ..
Sarah
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Author: beejay
Date: 2003-06-27 07:15
If you are playing the Brymer version, the piano part has been transposed but you play the original key, which is handfy if you later switch to an A clarinet. I think there is a very distinct difference to sound quality. The A clarinet is always slightly mellower and this counts above all in the low notes, even if you are not playing a basset clarinet. I cannot advise about your audition. You would perhaps do best to check with the organizers.
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Author: cyso_clarinetist
Date: 2003-06-27 13:30
it depends on what the audition is for.
If you are auditioning at a top rate conservatory playing it on Bb might not to be the best way to go. Of course your playing is the most important factor but I think some of those choices, like playing it on Bb can irritate the heck out of judges. People have told me that it is much easier to play the concerto on Bb clarinet but personally I think it may be harder because of the tone quality of the Bb being slightly brighter. I know I am really fickle but like a lot of clarinetists out there and the ones that are in control of the clarinet world right now. The piece was written for A clarinet (basset A clarinet I know lets not open that door now). playing on Bb is like thinking, "well this is a clarinet to so lets just on this, why not a bass clarinet, or an Eb, after all they clarinets too."
Further more, I believe like some others that some composers had different characteristics in mind between the Bb and A clarinet when composing music. Mozart being one of them, wrote the concerto for A clarinet yet in the Trio, the part is for clarinet in Bb. In my mind I think that if the tonal qualities didn't matter then why composer for two different clarinets? Wouldn't we just have a Concerto and Bb or a Concerto in A and a trio in D? Mozart didn't leave much when it came to his works so all I am saying is speculation and is definitely not based on fact.
if any can support what I am saying or go against it I would love to hear it. It would be a nice change to have an intellectually stimulating thread instead of "this clarinet is better than this", "What ligature is best?".
- James
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2003-06-27 14:18
In response to cyso's post:
As I'm sure you know, the clarinet in Mozart's time had far fewer keys than today's instruments. Playing in any key with more than a few sharps or flats was very difficult. Mozart was well aware of this, and advised his students to use B-flat clarinets for B-flat major, C clarinets for D Major, etc. The trio is in E-flat major, so the B-flat clarinet is the natural choice. The key determined the choice of clarinet, rather than the timbre of the clarinet.
However... Mozart was also seems to have attached a large importance on his choice of key for a particular work. Marches are almost always written in D major or C major, for example. He started writing the clarinet concerto in G major, actually for basset horn, and not for basset clarinet (as can be seen in the Winterthur fragment). At some point he changed his mind, and the first printed edition was for clarinet in A. Why did he change his mind? Was it just because Mozart had the particual timbre of Anton Stadler's extended A clarinet in mind? Or was it because Mozart felt that the key of A major was more appropriate to the musical material? If either of these are true, then we should should definitely only play this work on the A clarinet.
However... the general pitch at Mozart's time was lower than it is today, so A major at A=440 isn't the same A major that Mozart had in mind. Add to that the fact that the various clarinets in Mozart's time had completely different timbres to modern clarinets, so playing it on any modern clarinet still doesn't reproduce the timbre that Mozart envisioned. Key and timbre begin to lose their significance.
Sarah- if you have an A clarinet, play it on the A. If not, then play it on your B-flat. As cyso said, your playing is the most important factor. Enjoy!
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2003-06-27 16:15
The version for the Bb is something of a hybrid and not really the most audio wise appealling for the panel....
as to whether it can come off effectively, I think the truth is in how well you can manage it.
I tend to find alot of the Bb clarinet in this work tends to lose some of the tonal shading and nuance which is indicated for the work by Herr Mozart.
As to the judges or panel, if some are not too familair with the work then its not such a big deal....
as to the Kegellstat Trio the concert key I believe is in Eb and therfore the whole tonal world is quite different...its not an easy comparison as the Trio is total chamber music and more of an equal partnership.
The Clarinet Concerto K.622 is more over a solo clarinet piece and should be played as a showcase for the artist. I tend to feel too many clarinetists choose far too many easy articualations and follow an unimaginative performance of the Concerto. Pepper your interpretation up somewhat....sticking to written articulations is sometimes most unimaginative....try improvising in the cadenza or even write your own...
these things are what doing a concerto is all about....its all about what you want to do with the material Mozart has handed down to us. Don't feel compelled to stick to the norm, unless of course your still learning the basic notes and patterns of articulation!!
Its all about bringing something new to the table.
David Dow
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Author: GBK
Date: 2003-06-27 17:43
I'm sure David Dow merely chose the wrong word for his last post, but there is no cadenza in the Mozart Concerto...GBK
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2003-06-27 18:54
***.....but there is no cadenza in the Mozart Concerto...GBK***
There is cadenza in the Mozart Concerto (Adagio). Performers usually play the suggested cadenza instead of creating their own.
Vytas
Post Edited (2003-06-27 19:00)
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Author: clarinetqween
Date: 2003-06-27 19:06
The clarinet part is fingered the same on both instruments, the piano part is just transposed. That is all, I have played that piece so much I could play it in my sleep!
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2003-06-27 19:19
Liquorice wrote:
****Mozart was well aware of this, and advised his students to use B-flat clarinets for B-flat major, C clarinets for D Major, etc.****
Mozart played clarinet??? and even had students???
Vytas
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Author: GBK
Date: 2003-06-27 19:37
Hear ye...Hear ye...
The Mozart Concerto does not have a cadenza...never had, never will...
The proper terminology is eingang, which is very different than a cadenza ...GBK
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Author: Liquorice
Date: 2003-06-27 21:35
Vytas wrote: "Mozart played clarinet??? and even had students???"
Ha Ha! No, he advised his COMPOSITION students.
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Author: Francesca
Date: 2003-06-27 21:55
I always love this debate. Honestly, we (as in clarinetists) have borrowed various solo pieces from just about every instrument, and even vocalists. But when it comes to playing Bb or A clarinet, some people take a hard stand. IMHO, what instrument played makes little difference compared to who plays it. I just performed the Rondo of the Mozart on my Bb bass clarinet. (The advantage was that I could use all those wonderful low C's.) I have no qualms about playing music written for other instruments, no matter how drastically different. As to using it for an audition, I say go for it. I don't know your exact situation, but unless it's in front of professional clarinetists, nobody else is really going to know that the piece was written for A clarinet. Good luck!
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Author: Mark P. Jasuta
Date: 2003-06-28 01:15
Hi all,
Lets end this cadenza, eingang, thing. I would be a great help if a patient, knowledgeable person could in a detailed way compare and contrast these two forms. There are other posts, but no side by side comparison. Any takers?
Best Regards
Mark
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2003-06-28 02:00
Mark P. Jasuta wrote:
> Hi all,
> Lets end this cadenza, eingang, thing. I would be a great help
> if a patient, knowledgeable person could in a detailed way
> compare and contrast these two forms. There are other posts,
> but no side by side comparison. Any takers?
Probably because searching both here and in the Klarinet archives, and in the Online Clarinet Archives (http://www.ocr.woodwind.org) along with referencing a good book on musical terms, would answer the question.
There are 225,000 posts archived and indexed on the Webserver; you might want to take advantage of the accumulated knowledge.
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2003-06-28 02:04
Mark,
Dan Leeson has explained the difference between a cadenza and an eingang on more than one occasion on the Klarinet list. I doubt anyone does it better. See:
http://www.woodwind.org/Databases/Logs/1999/01/000917.txt
Also, for a comparison of a credenza to an eingong (and a chuckle), see:
http://www.woodwind.org/Databases/Logs/1998/08/000074.txt
Sarah,
Whether the Mozart is a good choice for your audition and whether it will be a problem if you play it on a Bb clarinet depends on the purpose of the audition and the makeup of the audition committee. If you will tell us what you are auditioning for, I think you may get better advice.
In general though, FWIW, I would personally only recommend using the Mozart Concerto for an audtion if: (1) it is required by the committee (duh!), OR (2) it is the only work you can play that meets the committee's requirements, OR (3) you studied it with one of the committee members OR (4) there are no clarinetists on the committee OR (5)(and here, you have to play it on an A), one of the functions of the audition is to determine whether you have an A clarinet and you play the Bb excerpts on the list better than you play the A excerpts, [OR (6) you are competing against me. ![[grin]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie5.gif) ]
IMHO, the problem with the Mozart as an audition piece is that there is no other work in the clarinet literature that clarinetists (and even some non-clarinetists) know better or are more opinionated about. You run the risk that, even if you play very well, you may be downgraded because something you do -- your tempo, dynamics, the way you play a particular trill, the way you articulate, where you breathe, the edition you use -- is not what a judge expects/prefers. You put yourself at particular risk if you plan to prepare the concerto on your own without a good teacher.
But, the purpose of the audition and the makeup of the committee makes a big difference so let us know.
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2003-06-28 17:51
The second movement "Adagio" (by Schimer, Inc. 1959) after a fermata is marked as CADENZA.
The same place in the Clarinet and Piano for Bb clarinet (distributed by Hal*Leonard Corp.) is marked as SUGGESTED CADENZA.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2003-06-28 18:41
Vytas wrote:
> The second movement "Adagio" (by Schimer, Inc. 1959) after a
> fermata is marked as CADENZA.
>
> The same place in the Clarinet and Piano for Bb clarinet
> (distributed by Hal*Leonard Corp.) is marked as SUGGESTED
> CADENZA.
Shows you how much you can trust editorial markings.
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Author: theclarinetist
Date: 2003-06-28 20:15
I think I'm just stupid.... but are we talking about playing the concerto on a Bb clarinet (still playing in the key of C) with the piano playing in the key of Bb.... Or are we talking about a version transposed into Bb for clarinet witht he piano playing in Ab??? I know this sounds like a stupid question...
I've never heard of a version of the mozart where the clarinet played in the key of Bb (concert Ab).... The reason I wondered was this... Morrigan said "the piano part in Bb is hell".... when playing on Bb clarinet, the piano is in Bb and when playing on A clarinet, the piano is in A.... as a pianist of modest ability, I think playing in A is worse than Bb.... Like I said, I know this is a dumb question, and I'm almost positive we mean playing in the same exact solo part, just on a Bb clarinet (in the key of C) with the piano playing in concert Bb.. but the wording was confusing enough to make me wonder...
As to the sound issue, I admit that if you play the mozart on an A clarinet, then immediately on a Bb right after, you will notice a difference (when played on A, it just sits a little better... hard to explain). However, I doubt that anyone without perfect pitch would be SO offended by a performance on the Bb that it would affect the outcome of an audition... as to the "timbre" issues... no one came seem to agree exactly to what degree clarinet choice changes the timbre of your sound, so I would say it's a personal choice. Play on Bb clarinet, do it confidently and play well. If it's convincing, I highly doubt they'll care (and if they DO care, do you really wanna associate yourself with such stuck up, pompous idiots anyway??)
Just my stupid opinion!
Don
theclarinetist@yahoo.com
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Author: salsacookies
Date: 2011-03-15 06:01
The piano part wouldn't change....it would still be in the original key of A...the A clarinet part which would normally have no sharps or flats would be transposed to Bb and have 5 sharps...so the hell would be for the clarinet.
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Author: Ed Palanker
Date: 2011-03-15 17:20
I've never seen the Mozart actually transposed for a Bb clarinet, it's always the piano part that is to accommodate the Bb clarinet. Can you just imagine having to play it a half tone lower in 6 sharps, I don't think so. When I taught at Peabody we used to require all freshman to play the Adagio from the Concerto as one requirements. It never bothered us if a student didn't yet own an A clarinet and played it on their Bb. Of course if they were auditioning as a performance major we would tell them that they would have to get an A clarinet if they were accepted. I had several students like that and I would help them choose one if they attended Peabody. We were more interested in how they played not what they played on. I must say though, that the vast majority of performance majors auditioned on their A clarinets when called for. ESP http://eddiesclarinet.com.
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