 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: Mark Pinner
Date: 2003-06-26 11:39
I had a repair that I started yesterday on a Conn wooden clarinet from around the late 40's to mid 50's. It is probaby a constellation looking at the logo and bore size. Apart from all the other work needed there is a broken key, the side Bb/Eb snapped directly across. I am experienced in this sort of work so I thought that it would be no problem. All the work was properly cold cleaned and I set up a silver solder using standard low flow flux paste and low flow solder. No penetration, the solder flowed beautifully but wouldn't stick to any surface, likewise with paste and high flow yellow tip. Flux core didn't work either. As a last ditched effort I tried to soft solder 60/40 and then 50/50 likewise no penetration. I was able to prise off all of the above attempts without anything sticking.
I had a look under a magnifier at the metal after scarping in various places on the keys. The underlying metal was a bright silver colour everywhere. The metal is non ferrous, magnet test. It would have soldered if it was nickel, german silver or sterling with at least one of the above methods; the very worst would have been an overflow that needed grinding.
I have canvassed a number of sources and one possible alloy suggested was an aluminium/zinc alloy similar to zincalume a local trade name. The keys ostensibly look solid and feel hard, no flex. They are however very light. If this horn was made immediately post war it is entirely possible that some aircraft type alloys were used in instrument manufacture.
Needless to say I didn't find it economically viable to set up a TIG weld for this job but I was able to adapt a scrap key. Any ideas on what the hell these keys are made of would be greatly illuminating. It also has extra locking screws to hold the pivot screws a la F. Arthur Uebel. May have even been an Uebel stencil.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: BobD
Date: 2003-06-26 11:45
sounds like die cast zinc alloy....i.e. "pot metal"
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-06-26 12:05
My pot metal experience has been with B&H Regent keys. These keys melt long before they are hot enough to attempt silver-soldering.
However there may well be other related alloys with a higher melting point. If there is much aluminium or zinc in the alloy, then soldering tends to be difficult or impossible, although some special solders are available if the alloy is known. Often these need considerable experience to use successfully. For unusual metals the flux is as important as the solder.
http://shorinternational.com/Solders.htm
Sorry I cannot help more.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: ron b
Date: 2003-06-26 18:04
Wow, that's a tough one. It appears you've done everything exactly right. The above responses seem correct too.
Those old Conn keys are usually nothing but fluff that won't stand much, if any, bending and can't be mended if they break.
Since the key itself hasn't melted from heat applications, it's pretty safe to assume it's not ordinary pot metal - although Bob may be onto something there. The only thing I can guess about from my own limited experience is that there may be lead(Pb) residue from previous soldering attempts, that didn't quite 'take', and needs to be cleaned away - every last molecule. Any *dirt* will prevent the solder from flowing or 'sticking'. The best method I've found for dissolving lead is to dip the ends to be silver soldered in nitric acid. Leave the ends in the acid for up to thirty minutes, until they're really clean, then rinse thoroughly to get all the acid off.
Keep an eye on things because the acid will eventually go to work on the key too.
Most shops I'm familiar with use borax as a silver soldering flux but Gordon's suggestion to try differet fluxes may be what you need to do. I've unintentionally silver soldered steel to nickel silver so I know ferris metals can be [silver]soldered :\ Aside from that, I don't have the expertise to know why your key won't stick together but am hopeful that the solution will be forthcoming.
- r![[cool]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/cool.gif) n b -
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: jbutler ★2017
Date: 2003-06-26 18:27
I've only dealt with Conn 424 and 444's from this era. Keys from these instruments seem to be nickel silver. I can't say for the Constellation model. Perhaps they are "pot" metal. Conn used the locking screws for their pivots for a number of years on all their clarinets and saxophones. Ferree's still supplies these if you are ever in need of replacements. I'm glad you were able to fashion a key.
jbutler
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: ron b
Date: 2003-06-26 19:11
Hi, John
I'm curious about the 'locking screws' you guys are mentioning. I have a couple of old Conns hiding somewhere that have lost most of their little 'set screws' that fit into the post to lock the pivots in place. Is that what you're referring to?
I contacted Ferree's several months ago about this and was told they didn't have the set screws. Are we talking about the same things or is my terminology mixed up? Maybe I wasn't asking the right question or using the right description.
- rn b -
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2003-06-26 19:19
The screws...
My Connstellation example has the standard pivot screws 'set' in place after adjustment by a finer screw at a right angle to the key/screw axis.
I suppose you could machine piece of drill rod stock to replace these itty-bitty screws, if you could determine the pitch of the threads.
http://www.smallparts.com/
The keys on my Connstellation appear to be Chrome-plated brass.
I wonder if there are variants over Stainless Steel?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: jbutler ★2017
Date: 2003-06-26 19:35
Ron,
Yes, I'm talking about what you are describing.
I ordered a couple of dozen of those from Ferree's within the year. They are listed on p. 96 of the catalog as: C47 Alto Sax, toolsteel set screw. They also fit the clarinets. Ed Kraus sells them as: #354B
Hope this helps.
jbutler
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Don Berger
Date: 2003-06-26 20:02
Mark P - Your " re-discovery " of "pot metal" is welcome [to me] as I will soon have a "propeller-wood" Pan-Am [Conn student horn, beautiful? but poor!] to try to make playable, SO No key bending at all!! There are many alloy-compositions of Zinc, Aluminum or Copper, maybe lead! Some of these Zn alloys back in the 40's were known as Zamak, brittle and non-welding!! Cheap and poor! Thats why the best key metal for bending/plating etc has been Nickel/German silver [more expensive metals] for many years. My suggestion is to find better alloy, replacement keys, quite a repairers job!! Much luck, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: ron b
Date: 2003-06-26 20:52
Thank you, John.
I had no idea they might also be used with saxes... boinnnng!
- rn b -
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Mark Pinner
Date: 2003-06-26 21:44
Pot metal. It is enough to make you start smoking the stuff. The locking screws don't seem to achieve much on this horn or any other I have encountered except to make the strip down time about 50% longer. I guess instrument makers don't really want their horns fixed anyway. Just buy a new one!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: BobD
Date: 2003-06-26 23:26
A bit of clarification. I used the term "pot metal" as a synonym for die cast zinc alloy which could be any number of such alloys that have been in use over the years.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-06-27 00:34
Forget those lost (aren't they always!), silly, time-wasting, fall-on-the-floor-&-get-lost, pivot-screw-wrecking-when-you-forget-to unlock-them locking screws.
That hole that they screw into is ideal for applying a drop of Loctite 222. If Conn made those horns today, that is what they would use.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Wes
Date: 2003-06-27 06:01
The late Joe Palka, a clarinet player in Flint, MI, said that he once bought a clarinet that was very light weight that had aluminum keys!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
