 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Ben
Date: 2003-06-22 03:40
I have a Mac and I interested in getting a good music notation program.
From what I have been able to tell, the two top programs available are Finale and Sibelius. Is their any great advantage one program has over another?
I want to be able to scan in music with my scanner and although I think both of these programs have this feature, I am wondering if one of the acells in this area (or others).
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Author: John J. Moses
Date: 2003-06-22 04:01
Check out this site. My students buy Finale from this less expensive source.
http://store.yahoo.com/studentsoftwarestore/comufi20ac.html
Good luck,
JJM
Légère Artist
Clark W. Fobes Artist
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Author: Garret
Date: 2003-06-22 07:54
I purchased Sibelius. I am very happy with it and have a Mac. From what I was told, Finale does not come with a written manual. It is all on the computer. Sibelius does come with a manual and a mousepad with the shortcuts printed on it. I like being able to reference while in the middle of writing out the music.
After downloading Sibelius to my 'puter, I was using it within minutes because the instructions were so easy to follow and it was a snap to figure out.
I haven't tried the scanning program that comes with it, but have heard it works pretty well.
If it came down to it, I'd buy Sibelius again.
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Author: theclarinetist
Date: 2003-06-22 21:14
Here is my opinion. I have finale, and it's really great. I've tried Sibelius, and I personally don't like it, but I'm a sworn finale fan, so I'm biased. But here is what you need to think about...
Does your Mac use OS X or OS 9? Finale does not come for OS X yet... It will run in classic mode, but it's sort of a pain... (if you DON'T have OS X and this doesn't make any since to you, then don't worry about it). Sibelius does come for Mac OS X. Personally, I'd wait and get finale when it comes out for OS X.
You can get Finale for OS 9 then upgrade when it's available (but the upgrade is quite expensive). So, if you have OS X and want something NOW, I might get Sibelius.
Honestly, I know people who use both and they both seem to work very well, so any differences between aren't huge (and mostly just opinions or preferences). I'd pick Finale, but i'm sure Sibelius works just as well.
Don
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Author: krawfish3x
Date: 2003-06-22 22:01
i have finale print music and it cost me about $60. this version practically has everything on it that i need. it can scan music, notate it with the use of a midi keyboard, and you can even play an instrument and it'll pick it up(not to well though). it works fine for me on PC, but im not sure about Mac.
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Author: diz
Date: 2003-06-23 00:00
I find both Sibelius and Finale overly complicated (I own them both). I much prefer Mosaic ... it's only written for Macs however, so this might interest you. It is fully featured and a breeze to use. I produce anything from piano scores to full opera orchestrations with vocals. It also has a graphic editor so you can do "groovy" notation if you wish.
www.motu.com
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Author: Ed
Date: 2003-06-23 00:05
FYI- The people at Coda have told me that the OS X native version will be out this summer.
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Author: diz
Date: 2003-06-23 00:07
Ed, really - that will be good - I will upgrade. I do like Finale a lot ... I just need to take a month off and devote time to learning it behemoth.
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Author: Ben
Date: 2003-06-23 03:07
Ed,
Did they say when Finale would be available for OS X this Summer?
Diz,
Since you own both Final and Sibelius, how do you compare them? In particular, how do you find the scaning recognition is when comparing the two programs?
I think Sibelius is generally a little more exspencive than Finale. So, is there any thing Sibelius does which Finale doesn't which may justifly the slightly higher cost?
Thanks everyone for all the assistance.
-Ben
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Author: diz
Date: 2003-06-23 03:33
The scanning really leaves a lot to be desired - unless your manuscript is pristine and aligned 90 degrees on your scanner - I ended up spending more time un-buggering-up the score than if I'd just "keyed it in" using my MIDI/Keyboard.
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2003-06-23 04:07
I have Finale 2001. As far as I am concerned, the scanning software that came with my version (a limited version of the already obsolete Midiscan) is worthless. It only allows one page at a time -- i.e., it can't scan several pages into the same file -- and works very poorly. Perhaps, they have finally improved this feature with the latest version but I'd check. The one-page-at-a-time limitation is a serious drawback, IMO -- mostly a demo to encourage you to spend a couple hundred more bucks on scanning software.
I believe Sibelius' scanning software is more complete but I don't know how accurate it is. I played with the demo version but it was a couple of years ago. The scanning feature of the demo worked well but I suspect it was a setup.
I think you can download demos of both programs from their manufacturers websites. For software of this nature, the demos are generally full-featured so that you can try them out thoroughly but they won't let you save your work. IMO, that's fair. You have a real opportunity to try before you buy.
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: diz
Date: 2003-06-23 04:17
I also have a problems with Finale and Sibelius (that I don't have with Mosaic) in that I prefer NOT to work in concert pitch. I write all my clarinet parts in B-flat or A, and all my horn parts in F. This is fine until you change pitch of clarinet in mid stream. Finale really does NOT do this very well at all.
In Mosaic - I set up a clarinet part (as a C instrument) and then change the key signatures appropriately (this is done by just doing this to a specific stave).
I have a collection of manuscripts of music from the 1800s and I refuse to write Haydn's horn parts all in F ... so I apply the same procedure to these horn parts. Any horn player worth her salt can transpose at sight. The only Haydn symphony my horn players gnashed their teeth over was the Farewell Symphony because it's crooked (primarily) for horns in F-sharp. The local blacksmith at the time had a field day with that request, I'm sure.
Ben ... if you'd like more info about Mosaic and Macintosh I'd gladly mentor you as I consider myself an "expert" on that software and get a lot of "help desk" style questions from aussie users.
Let me know.
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Author: gwie
Date: 2003-06-23 05:26
As a longtime user of both programs, I'd have to say this: While Finale is very powerful and offers many great tools for scoring, the method by which you have to use those tools is not very intuitive. Granted, I learned how to use it and didn't have any further issues with the learning curve, but it was intimidating at first.
I bought Sibelius right when it came out, and upgraded to version 2 last year. It is very fast and accurate, and I've been able to teach people the basics for our orchestration class here at UC Irvine in under an hour. It simply takes less effort to make things look good (although modifying the defaults can take some getting used to; setting up custom templates is a must sometimes).
Diz: You don't have to work in concert pitch if you prefer not to. =) There's a big button on top labeled "transposing score" that switches between concert and written pitch display/editing.
The software is $299 (Academic Price) I believe. I got mine from J.W. Pepper.
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Author: diz
Date: 2003-06-23 06:40
gwie - I'd love to see your class notes for teaching orchestration in an hour!!
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Author: gwie
Date: 2003-06-23 07:49
Diz - Yeah, I wish I could cover everything in an hour too. :P I just meant the basics of creating the score document, creating instruments, inputting notes, setting time signatures, key signatures, rehearsal marks, deleting objects, saving, and printing. Quite a hurry and people missed stuff if they weren't focusing the whole time, but overall not too confusing.
I lost a lot of sleep over orchestration...but I think about having to write out the score and parts by hand instead of using Sibelius...and I thank my lucky stars.
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Author: John O'Janpa
Date: 2003-06-23 12:53
I have Finale. Have never tried Sibelius. I also have Smartscore by Musitek.
I am working with the last generations of software, but I don't think much has changed scanning-wise in the newer versions.
What seems to work best for me (school of hard knocks) is:
1) Scan the music in Smartscore
2) Edit out the major mistakes, still in Smartscore.
3) Save the midi
4) Open the midi in Finale
5) Use Finale for finer points of editing
Smartscore files are supposed to be able to be imported directly into Finale, but this doesn't work as well for me as using the midi as an intermediate file.
This still is a lengthy process, but beats getting out the quill and parchment.
My main purpose in doing this is that I'm terrible at sight reading, but the midi enables me to hear the timing etc. It is also useful for transposing so that say a clarinet can play an oboe part and so forth.
I am definitely not an expert at this, so if someone has a better way of doing it I'm all ears.
John
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Author: John J. Moses
Date: 2003-06-23 12:58
Very simple:
Try the free test version of "Finale" by going to their site and downloading it. "Finale 2003 Notepad" at: http://www.finalemusic.com/
Good luck,
JJM
Légère Artist
Clark W. Fobes Artist
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Author: Meri
Date: 2003-06-23 18:09
Have you considered Overture by Opcode? It's in the same price range as Finale or Sibelius, and think it's a lot better than Finale.
For a lot less, you could try Fermata also by Opcode; for a $69 US shareware fee, you get almost everything you get of the much more expensive programs. There is a fully-featured demo at:
http://www.hitsquad.com/smm/programs/Fermata/
Meri
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Author: beejay
Date: 2003-06-23 18:13
I've tried most of them, and I find Noteworthy best for my needs. It doesn't scan, however, and I don't think it works on Mac.
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Author: Dan1937
Date: 2003-06-23 20:19
Ben,
There may be many valid points above, but what you're really getting is a personal opinion, which is colored by the writer's experience (which is what you're getting from me as well).
The learning curve for Finale may be a bit longer, but you don't have to learn every feature up front. You simply learn what you need when you need it.
Sibelius may be quicker to get up and running right out of the box, but Finale can be customized (in almost every detail -- articulation markings, stem lengths, expressions, etc., etc., etc.) to the way you work.
Manuals? The on-line manual is fine, you can search it for what you need to know, print out the results, and file the pages in a binder for future review. In addition, Quick Start Videos are included, as well as tutorials.
Some have said that Sibelius works faster. There's an actual comparison of the two in a 2002 book written by Steven Powell, a professional music engraver, in a book entitled "Music Engraving Today - the Art and Practice of digital notesetting." He performed the same operations with both applications and found that Finale was faster at most of them.
Lastly, a point that has not appeared in this thread -- if you intend to submit your works for publication, the vast majority of publishers require them to be in Finale format. (Yes, I'm a published compooser, I've used Finale for nearly nine years, and I love it!)
Can't help you with the scanning question, though; I've never needed it.
Good luck in your search!
--Dan
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Author: diz
Date: 2003-06-23 23:37
Dan1937
How do you cope with "avant garde" scores. Contemporary note heads, multi-rhythmic staves and complex key sigantures (i.e. not "standard")?
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Author: EEBaum
Date: 2003-06-24 00:15
The comparisons here seem more level-headed than most. I've tried searching the web for a thorough comparison of features and usability, but haven't found any. What I've come across tends to enter the realms of religious wars in the vein of Mac vs. PC. Any comparison seems to have a predetermined winner.
If anyone has found somewhere that exhaustively compares the features of Finale and Sibelius with a reasonably low bias, I'd very much like to see it. At the moment I'm using PrintMusic (Finale's budget version) and am thinking of picking up one of the big two in the near future.
-Alex
www.mostlydifferent.com
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Author: Ed
Date: 2003-06-24 00:25
"How do you cope with "avant garde" scores. Contemporary note heads, multi-rhythmic staves and complex key sigantures (i.e. not "standard")?"
Finale allows customization of all of these.
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