 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: ron b
Date: 2003-06-19 19:25
Someone mentioned a few weeks ago, here I think, something about brass colored silver solder. The topic came up recently in conversation with a local tech and I said I'd try to find out about it but I just discovered the 'Search' function is not operating at the moment.
I was hoping to find out where we can purchase brass cololred hard solder. Any info greatly appreciated.
- r![[cool]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/cool.gif) n b -
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Author: ron b
Date: 2003-06-19 23:35
Could be, Bob, but I don't think so. Ferree's silver solder, the last batch I used anyway, appears to have a high copper content - a slightly golden color - great for nickel-silver. I'm looking for something with even more yellow color but with E-Z (#1) solder characteristics. I may end up brazing the thing, a sax key guard, after all. Kinda tricky though, since it's the threaded bumper gizmo I need to put in place. I'm hesitant about it because brazing could melt the key guard brass, destroying in a moment the work it's going to require to form it. Local jeweler's suppliers only sell gold or silver solder. Ol' Mr. Tightwad (alias: Ron) doesn't want to spring for gold solder - the horn's marginally worth the effort I'm putting into it as it is :\
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Author: Mark Pinner
Date: 2003-06-19 23:38
The common varieties of plumbers solder, ie. those available locally to me, are generally a yellow colour. In plumbing parlance they are designated by a colour painted on the tip of the rod of solder. The most commonly used are 1) yellow tip which is a good all purpose hard solder used for most roughing in work using copper pipe. 2) blue tip which is a lower melt version and is more commonly used in finishing work or tinning. These solders do tend to go off to a light yellow colour and will yellow a bit more if polished withh brasso.
The downside of yellow tip is the high flow temperature which is well over 1000 degrees centigrade and close to gold solder in difficulty of use. Yellow tip is also difficult to use with the brass end of the alloy spectrum and flows better on copper. Yellow tip needs too much heat for most istrument applications and the rods tend to be about 5 to 8 millimetres in diameter. Blue tip is more feasible with a flow temp somewhere in the 800's centigrade but again rod diameter is a problem. I would recommend low temp silver solder available from instrument repair suppliers or industria suppliers which has a lower flow tem again and is relatively easy to use compared to the above. All silver soldering needs to be done using the correct flux/cream. Tin solder flux or fluid will just brown making the soldering look ugly.
It must be remembered that plumbers use acetylene in there brazing torches. Acetylene burns too hot for instrument repair applications but is used in manufacture. Oxygen/LPG or LPG stand alone give enough heat for our uses.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-06-20 00:36
Definitely do not use the 'silver solders', the brazing rods, the coloured plumbers rods. They all need a temperature that is far too high (close to red hot) for this job. The key guard mounts are always 'soft' soldered, ie low temperature. The LEAST damage you are likely to do if you use the high temp rods is to melt off all the neighbouring fittings, and totally destroy the lacquer over a large area! You may also make the body metal so soft that it dents under finger pressure.
Do a neat job and the area of the solder will be so small that its colour will be not noticed unless attention is drawn to it. If you cannot do a neat job, get somebody else to do it! If you are that worried about the colour, touch it up with coloured lacquer afterwards, or use a clear glue for the job and hope for the best. (It is far weaker than solder.)
The reason you cannot see the solder colour on some new horns is that the horn has been brass plated after the soldering.
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Author: ron b
Date: 2003-06-20 02:09
I appreciate All the information given so far. Thanks, Bob, Mark and Gordon as well as any who may follow. I didn't think I'd need to give any more info but it may make things a bit clearer if I do. I have an old Vito alto sax (made in France) which the owner wishes made playable for a beginning student. A piller (post) has been knocked off (big body dent there) but present. I've pushed the dent up to resolder that - no problem... soft solder and touch up. Eb and C# key guards took an awful beating as well and one is missing. As far as I know they are not readily available anywhere... at least everywhere I've searched. If any of my tech friends had one, they wouldn't give it to me! :|
Well, okay. Fortunately, I can use the remaining one as a pattern since they're interchangeable. I have sheet brass stock to trace and saw-cut, then shape over a hardwood 'pattern' I can turn on a metal lathe. So far, so good. I'll need to turn the threaded bumper fitting and solder it in place. At this stage, the planning part, I believe Gordon has solved 'problem'. Shape, fit, and turn the elements - then soft solder the bumper fitting in place. It'll be easier to do than hard solder anyway. Since it's to be done apart from the main body of the instrument, there's no problem with scorching any existing lacquer. A little clean up, buff and touch up lacquer, and Hah! no one will notice the tiny soft solder line; just the bright, shiny new-looking key guard.
I just thought if anyone knew right off of something sturdier and 'yellow' I might give it a go. But, really, if the bumper gets knocked loose we're in a heap o' deep trouble again anyway, soooo.... Thank you one and all for your kind consideration and suggestions. I believe I now know as much what not to do as what to do 
After this refresher project I've an E/B Albert system key to fabricate. Funny how those seem to be so prone to getting 'lost'. It's nickel silver though so it should be a breeze after all the practice I anticipate from the project under discussion.
I just love these Basket Cases....
Once again, Thank you All
- rn b -
Post Edited (2003-06-20 02:11)
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-06-20 03:35
I once turned a cylinder of hard wood to fit inside a key guard, but long enough to hold in a vice. This was excellent for beating the key guard back into shape, using a rawhide hammer, and also a small ball-peen hammer with a strip of clear acrylic between the hammer and the brass to avoid bruising the brass. Just a suggestion.
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Author: ron b
Date: 2003-06-20 05:18
Thank you, Gordon.
I hadn't thought of the acrylic; that's a fine suggestion. Anything that'll keep dimpling to a minimum is a fine idea. I do intend to use a rewhide mallet, and probably frequent annealing. My present plan is to leave enough center material to bolt the piece to the form until it's formed, hoping it doesn't stretch too much, then cut away the excess (where the bumper goes). I need a bigger vice but I've been intending to get one anyway for other things.
The acrylic should be useful for bending plated clarinet keys too. Have you used it for that? I've always used heavy paper but, yeah, I think acrylic would be stronger, and maybe smoother.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-06-20 06:26
I find acrylic sheet very useful. I also use it to make a punch to align keys.
When acrylic is too brittle, or I want something softer, I use polycarbonate. CDs are polycarbonate, and you can get rid of most of the coatings, leaving clear sheet, by microwaving them for about 5 seconds. Fun to watch too!
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Author: BobD
Date: 2003-06-20 12:05
Thanks guys for an interesting discussion. I've used silver and gold acrylic paint to touch up numerous parts. The only thing I can add is how about mixing some copper filings into epoxy!
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Author: jim lande
Date: 2003-06-21 05:26
You need to get one of the chemists on the list to weigh in. I know that there is some sort of copper solution (copper sulfate?) which is bright blue which, when rubbed on tin/lead solder, turns it a somewhat copper/brass color. Stained glass folks use it. I think there is a low probability of success, but you never know.
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Author: beejay
Date: 2003-06-21 06:01
In place of solder, I use an epoxy product called Milliput, which you find in art stores over here. It is incredibly strong and seems to stick anything to anything. It comes in different colors, but will easily take paint or dye. Until it hardens, it can be precisely shaped with ordinary water. I've used it for everything from molding a new key for an old clarinet to "temporarily" (several months ago) gluing back a detached fender on my car to filling in the cracks on a tile floor. I believe musums use it for restoration. Sorry to butt in, but I thought a bit of lateral thinking might be useful.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2003-06-21 14:34
Gordon, I respect your opinions and experience but wonder about that one.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-06-21 15:20
Tensile strength would be reasonably indicative of the strength of a bonding material used for a post rib attached to the body of a saxophone.
I have done a quick search. In general terms, epoxy seems to be about half the strength of solder, and 1/4 the strength of 95/5 (tin/silver) solder.
The following site gives a table showing that tensile strength for typical solders varies from about 5,500 to 7,500 psi.
http://www.interfluxusa.com/Technical/Sixsigma.htm
Sometimes 95/5 tin/silver solder is used, with a slightly higher melting point. Its tensile strength is around 15,000 psi.
I have no reason to doubt that the specialist epoxy in the following site is a particularly weak one. Two tests cited give results of 3,500 and 2,800 psi for tensile strength.
http://216.239.51.100/search?q=cache:I4zMoaAqVIwJ:www.wes.army.mil/REMR/pdf/mds/cr-1-2.pdf+%22Epoxy+resin%22+%22Tensile+strength%22&hl=en&ie=UTF-8
The figure for another epoxy is 1,500 psi:
http://www.intek-uk.com/10%20min%20epoxy.htm
Also relevant is "bond strength". When epoxy is used on metal it usually fails at the metal surface rather than within the epoxy, so bond strength could be expected to be less than tensile strength. Figures in the following site demonstrate this, although there seem to be exceptions depending on how it is cured......
http://216.239.33.100/search?q=cache:tSZQkz78hP0J:www.resintechgroup.com/pds/ArmA1A3.pdf+%22Epoxy+resin%22+%22bond+strength%22+psi&hl=en&ie=UTF-8
Adding appropriate fillers to epoxy can dramatically increase the tensile strength, but is unlikely to increase the bond strength.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-06-21 15:31
My search for info on Milliput revealed no figures for tensile or bond strength, so I presume they are not so outstanding as to be different from similar products.
However I give a quote from the following site:
http://aic.stanford.edu/jaic/articles/jaic37-01-007.html
"For a stronger fill, commercial epoxy putties may be used. These include Pliacre, Milliput, and Martin Carbone AB123, which are based on an epoxy resin with alumino-silicate ceramic fillers, titanium dioxide, and other inorganic pigments. Conservators often use these putties “straight” for gap-filling or supportive shells. They are often tinted with artist's pigments or textured with skim coats of other materials and painted to reintegrate the surrounding surface."
Although these fillers will increase strength within the material I very much doubt they would increase bond strength, which presumably is similar to other epoxies.
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Author: BobD
Date: 2003-06-21 15:53
Thanks Gordon, you certainly did your homework and I don't dispute your conclusions. Just some comments: I have never done a sax key guard job so I am ignorant of the real requirements. Tensile strength of solders is a tough subject since, first of all, the results depend on how well the test is done and how it is done. Personally I would not put much faith in them ...period. Joint strength/bond strength is certainly more relevant but one never knows what the strength of an actual joint was/is. We only know if it holds or fails. Technique probably has as much to do with actual joint strength when two different joining methods are used. I have done lots of soldering per se with both good and bad results. If I had actually done, say, ten sax key guard jobs with each of two different methods and the joints using one method never failed while some joints using the other method failed I think I would then have a good opinion. But I haven't and I don't.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-06-21 22:17
I think that when the surfaces are thoroughly prepared, and flame heat is used to heat the whole vicinity of a key guard mount, as is done by good technicians, considerable consistency is possible, and failures should be very rare indeed, if ever.
If a do-it-youselfer uses a soldering iron, inadequate peparation, and/or an inappropriate flux or solder, then the joint will be very weak indeed.
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Author: ron b
Date: 2003-06-22 03:18
This may help, I hope, take at least some of the guesswork out of the metal joining process
As I understand things, from a jewelrymaking class I took some years ago... brass, nickel silver, gold, silver, sterling or whatever must be heated sufficiently to excite the molecules so they expand, causing a wider gap between them than at room temperature. This ordinarily happens at about red/orange, around 1200-1500 degrees F. When the softer silver solder melts upon contact with the base metal some of it flows into the openings, forming a very strong, intimate bond between the two metals. If I remember correctly, a bit of zinc (softening agent) is also 'boiled' off the solder, causing it to become harder upon cooling. (Remember; zinc is poisonous - always use adequate ventilation).
This is a somewhat simplified description of what happens when joining metals by torch soldering. It's not too difficult to imagine that epoxy, strong as it is, is not as well suited as is solder to joining smooth metals. Epoxy is excellent for porous materials, no question. It probably would work very well with cast iron and such but not brass, copper or nickel silver.
Of course, a soldering iron has extremely limited possibe uses for instrument repair. I find propane or acetylene to be quite hot enough for the purpose. Ordinary house gas with oxygen is very good too.
The particular instrument I had in mind when I first posted had a post knocked of. The soft solder bond was very good and it took a real hard knock to dislodge it - so much so that it put a walnut size dent in the body. Soft solder, applied properly, will take a lot of punishment before it gives way.
I've seen (nickel silver) clarinet keys that had been soft soldered which had to be agressively unsoldered, then very thouroughly cleaned for proper silver soldering. The soft solder, left unmolested, would possibly have lasted indefinitely but the owner wanted it to look nice again. I can't imagine epoxy as a substitute in that situation. But, then... I've never tried it.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-06-22 06:26
Soft (low temp) solder is not strong enough for the construction of keys, except for pad retaining devices.
Hard (High temp) solder is used for construction of keys, and also for attaching saxophone posts to the ribs or flanges that are subsequently attached with soft solder to the body.
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Author: hans
Date: 2003-06-22 20:47
Thanks, ron b, for an interesting thread. I am always impressed by the range of skills and knowledge needed to be a professional repair technician.
While I am not at all questioning the validity of the epoxy data presented, I do wonder if there are newer, better epoxies available which might be suitable for repairs where soldering is impossible.; e.g., I had heavy electric sunroofs installed in my last two cars and the only thing attaching them to the car (and keeping them from falling on me) was epoxy. There are also some extremely strong and sticky polyurethane glues available.
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Author: ron b
Date: 2003-06-22 21:21
I don't doubt that glues already exist and will be used for musical instrument manufacture, probably sooner rather than later, that will bond metals cleaner and quicker than metal solders. As you say, Hans, it's already standard practice for many things in the auto industry (and how many others I couldn't begin to guess). It will reduce production costs and, to some degree, alter repair methods and techniques. Plastic clarinet body repairs are fairly easy and routine these days with epoxy type glues, fillers and solvents. I've seen a few wood clarinet bodies restored with plastic replacement segments. You have to look closely to find the repair and functionally they're quite satisfactory. I can't quite bring myself to imagine saxes being glued together but maybe the old [white] plastic bodied ones will make a comeback. A few old timers tell me they weren't at all bad instruments. Didn't The Bird play one of those (for a while anyway)?
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Author: hans
Date: 2003-06-22 23:01
ron,
Yes, Parker played a white plastic alto sax, borrowed from a local music store for the legendary 1953 Massey Hall jazz concert (with Dizzy Gillespie, Bud Powell, Charles Mingus, and Max Roach).
Hans
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