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 String instead of cork
Author: trampoline 
Date:   2003-06-14 05:30

I've seen bassoons that have string wrapped around the joints rather than cork, and to me it seemed like a pretty cool idea.

I just won a noblet on ebay (serial no. 524xx - any idea on how old it is?) and am getting it completely overhauled. Do techs do string joints for clarinet? Is it ok to do, or is there some problem with it?



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 Re: String instead of cork
Author: JMcAulay 
Date:   2003-06-14 06:03

I have seen only one Clarinet made in the last hundred years or so with string on the tenons. It was an infamous Indian Army model sold through eBay for 35 bux or so. It could not be played. That should suggest how wonderful most consider the old string-on-the-tenon trick.

Regards,
John

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 Re: String instead of cork
Author: Bob Schwab 
Date:   2003-06-14 06:39

Maybe you could use that teflon tape that plummers use.

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 Re: String instead of cork
Author: David Peacham 
Date:   2003-06-14 07:47

The cheap wooden recorders I had as a kid in the 60s/70s had string wrapped around the joints. It used to come loose and have to be replaced regularly: an easy job, but irritating. It was a relief to buy a better recorder, with cork joints.

-----------

If there are so many people on this board unwilling or unable to have a civil and balanced discussion about important issues, then I shan't bother to post here any more.

To the great relief of many of you, no doubt.


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 Re: String instead of cork
Author: BobD 
Date:   2003-06-14 12:46

Many clarinet players have some strong prejudices and string tenons seems to be one of them. The grooves in the tenons of many current horns are there for those who still prefer string. I have a couple of horns with string tenons that I play routinely. Technicians in general seem to avoid string because it's not popular but they could charge more for string so maybe they are missing the boat. Be brave, start a trend.

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 Re: String instead of cork
Author: Douglas 
Date:   2003-06-14 13:17

It's finally happened: a thread on thread.

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 Re: String instead of cork
Author: trampoline 
Date:   2003-06-15 05:12

I will be brave. I will be daring, bold, make a radical new (retro?) statement. I will bring back platform boots.

...After I'm informed enough to be able to at least fend off the remarks of vicious cork nazis.

I've done some searches on string wrapped tenon joints for both bassoon and clarinet but I haven't been able to find much but maintenance. It seems to be as banal to bassoonists as it seems unthinkable for clarinetists. If anyone could help me out with some more experiences or maybe some links to related articles, that would be great.

-sam



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 Re: String instead of cork
Author: JMcAulay 
Date:   2003-06-15 05:46

trampoline advised, among other stuff, "I will bring back platform boots."

From where?

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 Re: String instead of cork
Author: trampoline 
Date:   2003-06-15 06:09





Post Edited (2003-06-15 06:20)

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 Re: String instead of cork
Author: trampoline 
Date:   2003-06-15 06:18





Post Edited (2003-06-15 06:20)

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 Re: String instead of cork
Author: trampoline 
Date:   2003-06-15 06:19
Attachment:  p-stack315.jpg (20k)

From the fiery pits of shoe hell where irrelevance and digression rule over them with a meaninglessly cruel fist. The shoes, that is.

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 Re: String instead of cork
Author: Gordon (NZ) 
Date:   2003-06-15 06:55

As far as I know, the idea of the thread is that the diameter, hence fit, is adjustable by adding or removing, to suit the climate as the player travels the globe. But a lot of resilience, that is the wonderful quality of cork, is sacrificed in taking this option on a soprano clarinet.

For cork to be as resilient (without excessive force during assembly) on a large diameter such as a bassoon bell tenon, or a bass recorder, the tenon groove would need to be deeper in order to allow thicker cork. On a bassoon particularly, this would mean considerably thicker timber, on an instrument which already has a weight problem.

Perhaps this is the reason why the thread option lingers on for bassoons. On some bass recorders the compromise is to use a long tenon (for good alignment) but a very narrow-width cork.

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 Re: String instead of cork
Author: ron b 
Date:   2003-06-15 07:38

Nothing wrong with string and it's a natural for even mediocre do-it-yourselfers. I prefer heavy thread though, as did most 'old timers', because you can make finer adjustments as Gordon points out above, and... it's more durable. Since I have the option, however, all my personal horns have corked tenons. One of my metal (backup) horns, a five piece model, has thread tenons for the reason Gordon also states; it has extremely shallow tenon grooves. I believe its tenons were meant to be thread wound since cork would have to be ineffectively paper thin. The thread has lasted nearly three years with no adjustment necessary - I play it at least once a week.

- r[cool]n b -

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 Re: String instead of cork
Author: Hank Lehrer 2017
Date:   2003-06-15 11:42

Trampoline,

Loved the boots! Maybe double-knits and Nehru jackets are not far behind.

HRL

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 Re: String instead of cork
Author: BobD 
Date:   2003-06-15 14:59

Ron and Gordon pretty much explain the why of it. In my experience using string requires one to get the diameter "just right" moreso than with cork because the string really doesn't compress much. Also, if you get too much string on the tenon you may have a hard time disassembling which could lead to a cracked tenon. You can use two different diameters of string to get it right. I rub the string with paraffin but I guess you could also use waxed string or rub it with beeswax yourself. String is not something to use if you don't like to spend time fooling around with your tenons.

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 Re: String instead of cork
Author: Bob A 
Date:   2003-06-15 19:01

It's a hot sultry day in Iowa, so what the heck---

"Standing on the corner watching all the world go by---
fooling with my tenons,
Got some thread I'd like to try---"

Finishers please?

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 Re: String instead of cork
Author: Mark Pinner 
Date:   2003-06-15 23:34

In the bassoon world you find 50/50 thread/cork joints. I have done some experimentation on my Fox which comes with threaded tenons and changed them to cork having done the whole process once before. Thread tenons make the horn feel a little more personal and up close but do have a detrimental effect on projection. Cork feels a bit tighter and seems to produce more volume. There are a plethora of opinions on which is best and I think personal choice is the issue. I would re-thread about half a dozen bassoons, oboes or cor's per year and cork probably double. I have seen some players who have a combination of both on a bassoon, generally cork on the wing and string on both ends the long joint. Crooks/bocals are generally corked but were once also threaded. Thread jints are a little easier to put together across the climactic range but also suffer shrinkage.

It should be remembered that clainets and indeed oboes are made out of a harder wood which has less "give". They often have sleeving or flush bands which goes some way to negating the effect of the thread. You can thread clarinet tenons with little detrimental effect. Although the increased cost makes it a little pointless. You would also find that you had to adjust the threading regularly. Threaded joints are a little proned to holding water.

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 Re: String instead of cork
Author: BobD 
Date:   2003-06-16 12:23

Well put,Mark, and I totally agree.

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 Re: String instead of cork
Author: trampoline 
Date:   2003-06-16 17:17

Alrighty then. Thanks for all the info ^_^ I'll stick to cork for now, but I'll keep a tenon wrapping kit handy just in case I change my mind.

- Sam



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 Re: String instead of cork
Author: JMcAulay 
Date:   2003-06-16 20:24

trampoline: Perhaps a roll of heavy waxed dental floss in your instrument case would help you along the road to happiness and fulfillment.

Regards,
John



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 Re: String instead of cork
Author: clarinetmama 
Date:   2003-06-17 14:30

My best pal plays bassoon and had the string replaced in favor of cork. I believe his feelings on string are that they are stupid. His words, not mine. I believe it tends to unwrap quite easily. Perhaps this falls under leaving things alone.

Jean

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 Re: String instead of cork
Author: Gordon (NZ) 
Date:   2003-06-17 15:09

I think plumbers, teflon, thread-seal tape would be better than string or thread.

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 Re: String instead of cork
Author: BobD 
Date:   2003-06-17 17:07

Gordon, you could be correct. But that stuff is so slippery that I'd always worry about the horn falling apart when I'm not prepared for it. I have used it for plumbing jobs around the house and have also tried it a bit on tenons.

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 Re: String instead of cork
Author: BobD 
Date:   2003-06-17 17:08

Now......if only the tenon and socket had mating threads.........

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 Re: String instead of cork
Author: JMcAulay 
Date:   2003-06-17 17:20

Teflon tape is very useful for trying out a Clarinet that has bad corks.

Regards,
John

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 Re: String instead of cork
Author: BobD 
Date:   2003-06-17 23:07

For sure.....

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 Re: String instead of cork
Author: jim lande 
Date:   2003-06-18 04:19

I used thread once in an emergency. I had to wind practically a whole bobbin and it didn't seal well.

Tefloo tape doesn't compress well, so it wouldn't work well instead of cork. However, it is wonderful if a joint is loose. I have a bunch of it wrapped around levers on my contra alto in order to improve the adjustment. Oh yeah, and I sometimes stuff some in with the pivot screws to quiet the keys.




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 Re: String instead of cork
Author: Baz 
Date:   2018-01-10 00:43

I picked up my old E.J. Albert simple system a few years ago from a full overhaul I had done in London, it has a Barret Action on the upper joint, my local guy could not make head or tails of it, when I looked at it the centre tenon had been partially corked but he had threaded it, of course I asked why, he said that the tenon was split and just cork would not hold it in place and threading it was the best way to do it.



Post Edited (2018-01-10 00:49)

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 Re: String instead of cork
Author: alanporter 
Date:   2018-01-10 02:26

I have an old Riedl C clarinet that has threaded tenons. It plays very well and the connections feel firm.

tiaroa@shaw.ca

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 Re: String instead of cork
Author: Caroline Smale 
Date:   2018-01-10 03:18

Thread certainly does have a very important role to play in strengthening the tenons on bassoons, especially those on the long joint where the tenon is only about 3 mm thick, and that is before a groove for the twine is cut into it.
The maple wood is also relatively weak and benefits from the extra strengthening that the twine provides.

So it makes sense that a cracked tenon on a clarinet has some extra reinforcing under the cork, although hopefully the crack had also been cleaned and glued before the twine was applied.

It's also worth noting that most basson joints are generally slightly tapered and made more loose fit than on a clarinet to allow the joints to be assembled by pushing straight in without twisting. They only fully tighten up when pushed the final few millimeters.

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 Re: String instead of cork
Author: Caihlen 
Date:   2018-01-10 08:36

Bagpipes use waxed string on the tenons.

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