 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Jerry
Date: 2003-06-08 00:21
What is recommended to improve a fuzzy sounding throat B flat tone. I realize that is a problem note on most clarinets, but there are ways to improve it a bit.
Of course there is the side B flat, but that is a bit unwieldy for many passages.
I've also heard mention of reducing the distance the register key opens, among other fixes. What can be done to improve the standard B flat sound?
I'm playing an R-13.
Has anyone heard of a supplemental key used by any left hand finger (or thumb, e.g. at a point below the thumb hole opposite the register key) that would open a hole in the same point in the barrel as the side B flat key does. That would seem to solve some problems.
Jerry
The Villages, FL
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2003-06-08 02:19
Hi Jerry,
Although these are not quite the same as " a supplemental key used by any left hand finger (or thumb, e.g. at a point below the thumb hole opposite the register key) that would open a hole in the same point in the barrel as the side B flat key does," the Mazzeo and Stubbins systems were somthing like what you suggest. However, there was not conscious effort required as the Bb fingerings could be played in ways other than the side Bb.
For the Mazzeo, adding any RH ring key to an A gave you a good Bb. I've not played a Stubbins but I think there was a more "automatic" corrected fingering with a linkage that came into action with an A and register key combination.
I know there are others on the BB with much more knowledge on the Stubbins or even the Macintyre who will probably chime in.
HRL
Post Edited (2003-06-08 14:27)
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Author: cyso_clarinetist
Date: 2003-06-08 02:56
Okay... here is THE best fingering to improve the sound. add the third finger of each hand and the C/F key on the right hand pinky. It works.
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Author: Jerry
Date: 2003-06-08 03:14
Thanks, Hank. I would have been surprised if a similar approach hadn't already been tried a few dozen years ago. I wonder why it didn't catch on?
Generally, what are the causes of a raspy/stuffy sounding B flat, and even an open G? Besides being design related, can different setups (mouthpiece, ligature, reed) help minimize it? Other instrument tweaks?
In fact (I'm trying different things as I'm writing this) the greatest B flat and open G buzz resulted from trying a new V12 reed out of four I'm breaking in. I thought I clogged up a hole, or some other unexpected event, the buzzing on just a couple of the throat tones was so pronounced. The reed I'm warming up now has significantly less buzz coming from the register key hole and open G holes than the previous V12 I was breaking in. It's a slightly softer reed (3 1/2) than the other new 3 1/2 V12s. Funny how that works!
Jerry
The Villages, FL
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Author: Jerry
Date: 2003-06-08 03:20
James. Thanks for the alternate fingering. I tried it on my instrument and it gave a slightly more hollow and slightly warmer tone. I can't say the fuzz was significantly improved. The side B flat fingering still sounds a lot cleaner.
Jerry
The Villages, FL
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Author: GBK
Date: 2003-06-08 04:42
Jerry,
Here are 6 resonance fingerings to try :
The Bb resonance fingering which for my R-13's produces the most pleasing and highest pitch is:
R + A key x 2 3 / x 2 3
When possible, that is my preferred choice in exposed Bb passages.
My second choice, depending on the surrounding notes in the passage is:
R + A key x x 3 / x x 3 +F/C key
Both fingerings clear up the Bb, with the first one raising the pitch a bit more.
There are a number of other possibilities, including this one (which has the advantage of keeping all motion in one hand):
R + A key x 2 3 +C#/G# key / x x x
It can be adapted to the side Bb fingering as such:
R + side #2 oxx C# / ooo
also try:
R + A key x 2 3 / + (left hand) B/E key x x x
R + side #2 x 2 3 / x x x
There are also slight variations for all of the above fingerings. Experiment and find the one that works with your set up ...GBK
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Author: BobD
Date: 2003-06-08 13:01
Thanks GBK, your postings are always informative,helpful and interesting. Bob. I have "several" horns and setups and a few sound out a nice clear Bflat but I must admit I don't know why.
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2003-06-08 14:12
I suggest doing a Phorum search and read the lengthy discussions we have had on this recurrent problem. I have a Bundy-Mazzeo, a Stubbins and a McIntyre, and have concluded that the Stubbins has the fewest drawbacks of these differing solutions. For myself, both LeBlanc and Selmer, in the 50-80s [and prob. still do] adopted an "outside-raised, inside shortened" register tube for their best cls, which give Bb's that are more satisfactory, as good or nearly so as the A + trill key. That, and other features, is why I prefer these makers. Also, the Full Boehm cls with the low Eb give a "clean" clarion Bb, BUT it is "different-sounding", more like the lower clarion notes! I believe Av Galper designed his patented reg. tube for use on Buffets in particular. Please correct me if wrong. All of these solutions have been patented, I can supply pat. #s if anyone wishes to research this again. The basic problem, of course, is the compromised tone-hole location for dual use!!! Good luck is finding your solution. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2003-06-08 14:36
Don,
You are right on track with your observations of the "compromised tone-hole location for dual use!!!" I too prefer Selmer (Series 9 and 9*) and LeBlanc (Dynamic 2) for just this reason.
Both make clarinets have a slightly different register key vent as you well know. I must say though that I have not been overly troubled with a poor Bb sound with either instrument and I'm quite picky about correct pitch and timbre. GBK is also right on about the resonance fingerings but in a recent band performance of Appalachian Spring which is in Ab concert, the very exposed clarinet solo has several Bbs but just using the traditional fingering of my two model clarinets provided a good Bb.
HRL
Post Edited (2003-06-08 17:14)
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Author: William
Date: 2003-06-08 14:52
My favorite Bb (& A) resonance fingering:
Bb--R & A key + OXX/OOO & LH B/E key. Advantage, all the "venting is done with the left hand fingers.
A--A Key + OXX/OOO & LH B/E key.
Another fingering for G#--G# + OOX/X00 & RH Eb/Ab key
And G--OOO/XXO
And "long" B (middle line note) Play as usual but also open the A key. This is a particularly good finger for improving the focus of a very softly played B.
These fingerings have always worked for me.
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Author: Rene
Date: 2003-06-08 19:10
Just remember that a fuzzy Bb can also be due to water in the A hole or the register hole.
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Author: Benni
Date: 2003-06-08 20:12
Hank - One of the first things I noticed about my Series 9 was how clear the throat Bb was! It still has some fuzz on it, but it's not as bad as others I've played.
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Author: Tim2
Date: 2003-06-08 21:24
Cleaning the Bb vent hole can make the sound clearer, less stuffy.
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Author: Hank Lehrer
Date: 2003-06-08 23:03
Benni,
Yes, the Series 9 and the 9* I have are both terrific as is the Leblanc Dynamic 2. Nice to know that someone else has had the same good luck.
HRL
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2003-06-09 02:32
Jerry,
Since no one else has mentioned it, let me add that reducing the opening of the register key is usually done to improve its function as a register key (and reduce/eliminate "grunting" in the clarion register -- if possible, see Michael Webster's IMHO excellent column in the latest issue of "The Clarinet"). If your register key opening is less than around .5mm, you might experiment with opening it a little (sanding the cork) to improve the Bb function. The trick is to achieve the best compromise.
Before you do that, though, I would suggest you follow Tim2's advice to make sure the tube is clear.
FWIW, the fingering that I use on my (1963) R13 is:
RT oxx oox Ab/Eb
Best regards,
jn
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2003-06-09 13:59
Always liked the series 9 Selmer. The one thing to be thankful for is all of the optional fingerings for this particular note...
David Dow
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Author: Jack Kissinger
Date: 2003-06-09 15:09
After I went to bed last night, it occurred to me that perhaps I should have outlined the steps I would follow more explicitly. Here is what I would do:
1. Remove the register key. (one of the easiest keys on the instrument to remove and reinstall)
2. (Optional but recommended) Make sure the tube is clear. (What I do is remove almost all the cotton from a Q-tip so that it goes into the tube easily. Then make sure it "rubs" the sides. On older instruments or if it comes out black, I put a VERY small amount of sewing machine oil on the cotton and clean the tube carefully, then run through a couple of dry tips to remove any oil that might remain.)
3. While the key is off, try the Bb. If it's still fuzzy, pad height (or an obstructed tube) is not the issue. If it does play clearly, then you may have solved the problem by cleaning the tube.
4. Reinstall the key and try a Bb to see if it now plays clearly. If it does, then obstruction in the tube was likely the problem. If it does not, you may be able to improve the Bb by sanding the cork to raise the key height a little. But do this VERY gradually. Usually as the key height increases, the quality of the Bb will increase. But the key's ability to perform as a register key will decline. As I said in my earlier post, the object is to find the best compromise.
None of the steps I've recommended is irreversible. However, if you are not comfortable working on your instrument, it shouldn't cost you much to have a repair tech check it out -- just make sure the repair tech is a good one.
Best regards,
jnk
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Author: ron b
Date: 2003-06-09 18:33
Make sure the tube is clean, as stated above. Then make sure the register key pad is properly shaped 'clear' cork. Properly shaped is an inverted cone, small end to register hole, with pointy end flattened enough to cover the hole of course. Clean the hinge screw and hinge tube while you're at it and add a tiny drop of key oil when putting the key on for final fit. Preferably, it should have only a very slight seat impression. The register key should open no more than the diameter of the tube hole, maybe a little more if it's 'fuzzy' - but not much more.
You may as well check to make sure there is no side to side key wobble as long as you're already tinkering with it. If it wobbles, take to your tech to have it swedged.
Post Edited (2003-06-09 18:37)
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Author: fmadison
Date: 2003-06-10 04:35
Hi,
http://members.aol.com/cwindz/galper.html
End of story thank you for playing.....
-Frank
It's the wood that makes it good!
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-06-10 05:49
If it is clearer with the key removed, which is almost always the case, then the note can be made far clearer by reducing the turbulence of the air as it vibrates in and out of the hole past the pad.
It is not necessary to have a huge venting, just to have a better shaped pad.
- Glue in a thick (say 4.5 mm) cork pad.
- Alter the alignment of the key cup so that the pad closes flat on the vent.
- Bend the key slightly so that reasonable (say 2.5 mm) venting is restored.
- Press the key closed so a visible seating mark is left on the face of the cork.
- Remover the key and remove cork so that it like the shape of a decapitated cone. The narrow diameter, at the tone hole end of the cork, should be no larger than the surface that actually contacts the vent, i.e. the size of the seating mark. The diameter gradually increases to that of the inside diameter of the key cup, at the other end of the cork that protrudes from the key cup.
- Replace the key. Voila! Wonderful!
I have never noticed this to cause any buzz or other strange effect in the second octave as somebody mentioned. I've done this process perhaps 100 times.
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Author: Maarten
Date: 2003-06-10 10:43
I also like to use the low Eb as a Bb; I like the sound very much, although I have to correct the pitch a bit. I also have a clarinet from Selmer with the omega system (as far as I know they only made it in the 50s), which separates the register vent from the Bb vent. It has been discussed on this BB before too.
Author: Don Berger (---.proxy.aol.com)
Date: 2003-06-08 14:12
I suggest doing a Phorum search and read the lengthy discussions we have had on this recurrent problem. I have a Bundy-Mazzeo, a Stubbins and a McIntyre, and have concluded that the Stubbins has the fewest drawbacks of these differing solutions. For myself, both LeBlanc and Selmer, in the 50-80s [and prob. still do] adopted an "outside-raised, inside shortened" register tube for their best cls, which give Bb's that are more satisfactory, as good or nearly so as the A + trill key. That, and other features, is why I prefer these makers. Also, the Full Boehm cls with the low Eb give a "clean" clarion Bb, BUT it is "different-sounding", more like the lower clarion notes! I believe Av Galper designed his patented reg. tube for use on Buffets in particular. Please correct me if wrong. All of these solutions have been patented, I can supply pat. #s if anyone wishes to research this again. The basic problem, of course, is the compromised tone-hole location for dual use!!! Good luck is finding your solution. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2003-06-10 14:25
Many thanks, Maarten [NL!], for repeating my earlier thoughts on a very important clarinet initial-selection, re"engineering" consideration. Just my IMHO's. I've been following [lurking?] this thread, reading of the numerous alternative fingerings [good, But, do we have time and thought to use them?] and the "repair-reorientation-cleaning" suggestions", again good. But, IMHO, the "bad-note problem" might at least be minimized at the purchase stage by trying comparable cls by many makers, "big 4" plus "custom-mades", and selecting with consideration being given to the pinch Bb, the C#/G# and the several "fork" fingerings in frequent use. Gosh, I do go on!. and should follow my own advice in the future!!! As Maarten suggests, I believe several makers-restorers will supply the Stubbins solution, on special order, and/or the Galper tube installation. Much of my opinion-suggestion comes from BASS cl experience where the sop. cl "problems" are made more severe by the desireable "double-register-keying" structures. Good luck, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: BobD
Date: 2003-06-10 15:06
An amazingly good amount of information here. How come I never thought of playing the horn with the register key removed!! Some great ideas are so simple it's scary. Some readers might be confused about the term "cork pad"......does one mean the tone hole pad or the key pad on the bottom of the thumb area. I know the diff. but some might not. Now I'm thinking of trying teflon tape on the register key keyhole pad.
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Author: Hiroshi
Date: 2003-06-10 16:06
To develop new alternative fingerings, even the right hand thumb can be used:I remember someone once posted Robert Marcellus had used his right hand thumb to use an extra side key by making it free putting the bell on his right lap. This is what almost all teachers tell young people not to do.
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Author: GBK
Date: 2003-06-10 17:11
Hiroshi....The right thumb can be useful to make a more resonant sounding
C5 and D5.
Play C5 in the normal manner and use the right thumb to add the 2nd trill key from the top. The result will be a freer sounding C5.
Thus for C5:
TR 1 2 3 / 1 2 3 F/C + 2nd side trill (played by right thumb)
The D5 can be achieve a fuller sound by using the right thumb to open the top side trill.
Thus for D5:
TR 1 2 3 / 1 2 3 + top side trill key (played by right thumb)
Both fingerings are particularly useful on the A clarinet ...GBK
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Author: Todd W.
Date: 2003-06-10 17:47
Gordon --
Maybe it's ron b's eyes rolling up into his head as he faints after finding that you and he agree, since your post was a slightly expanded explanation of shaping the cork that ron b also recommended above.
;+))))) Todd W.
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Author: ron b
Date: 2003-06-10 18:44
You nailed it, Todd  Just another one of Grampa ron's spells. Not only do I agree with Gordon (96.2% of the time anyway), it seems we've covered this subject a hundred times - I was trying not to hyperventilate.
In all sincerity, though, there are some very good suggestions (in addition to the ones Gordon elaborated on), in this thread.
- r![[cool]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/cool.gif) n b -
Post Edited (2003-06-10 18:45)
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Author: fmadison
Date: 2003-06-10 20:49
Hi,
Adding Gordon's reshaping of the cork pad with Galper's elongated vent tube. hmmmmm.
I will have to try it out on one of my Clarinets.
-Frank
It's the wood that makes it good!
Post Edited (2003-06-10 22:49)
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-06-11 05:57
Sorry Ron. This thread grew fast and I thought I had quickly scanned it to find no mention of the shaping of the cork pad, but clearly I was wrong.
BobD: Yes, some confusion may well exist. To clarify, I, and I think every other technician, reserves the term 'pad' for the soft-material item mounted into a key cup and closes against a tone hole. The other bits and pieces of soft material are simply 'corks' or 'felts' or 'linkage silencers' or ......... but NOT 'pad's.
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Author: ron b
Date: 2003-06-11 18:03
No need for sorry, Gordon, I just felt like we were going round and round; a shortcoming I need to work to correct.
I tend to forget that many newer players probably have never heard, seen or thought of shaping the R'key cork. Thank you for reminding me that a new crop of musicians are coming up every season and have a genuine 'need to know' about many things to be Smart Shoppers for their instrument's maintenance - not only clarinets, by the way. For years I thought it was perfectly all right to stuff a sax pad in your register key and forget about it. Of all the clarinets I touch each season almost all of 'em need register key attention - and I'm not making that up. I see mostly rotting sax pads but many have crumbling waterkey (composition) cork and quite a few have a regular skin pad, usually with the stuffing poking out. The owners/players are often quite unaware there's a problem with that until it's pointed out.
I am the one who needs reminding that patience is a virtue worth cultivating and now I need to go pull a few weeds
- ron b -
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