 The Clarinet BBoard
|
Author: DAVE
Date: 2003-06-06 02:25
I have repadded many clarinets using skin pads. Are there different methods for cork? Will the same adhesive work? (I am using French Cement from Ferrees)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: ron b
Date: 2003-06-06 05:12
Hi, Dave;
I haven't done many cork pads and look forward to the information I hope your post will generate.
From personal experience and in my opinion, there's no reason Ferree's cement will not do a satisfactory job. Ferree's French Cement is good stuff. However, for aesthetic reasons, I like the (very) white kind Allied has been offering recently. I like Ferree's French Cement but am using the ultra white almost exclusively nowadays. When heated, it stays plastic longer than Ferree's cream colored cement - although that may be my wishful imagination.
For sax pads and cork register key pads I prefer brown stick shellac. It's working properties are different and there are more 'grades' with varying melting/working characteristics. I like the darker kind because it seems to stay 'workable' longer than the clear kind. I find it ideal for oboe and clarinet cork pads where you need to get them to as near perfect all around contact as possible. Tone hole contact is more critical than with skin pads.
There was an earlier discussion about tone holes. In this situation we DO need to be more meticulous about tiny flaws.
To summarize; My personal preference is very white cement for white clarinet pads and stick or flake shellac for brown kid skin and cork applications. It just looks better to me.
I feel it prudent to mention here that silencer cork and tenon cork is another matter; contact cement is the almost universal adhesive for those applications.
- ron b -
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Rene
Date: 2003-06-06 06:13
Oh. maybe I've done something wrong, then.
I have switched from cement to that clear milky hot-melt adhesive that is used with those pistols. I find it also can be used for silencing cork, if you apply it to the cork and not to the metal (cools down too fast) first. It sticks quite well I think, and can easily be removed.
However, do not trust me, and ask a professional and/or the people in the board.
Suggestions?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: ron b
Date: 2003-06-06 06:50
I don't believe you're doing anything wrong, Rene.
Everyone I know has a personal preference about material, procedure, tools, etc. Everyone's touch is a little different and one is just as good as the next as long as the end result is a good, durable and neat job.
Glue gun (hot melt?) glue works fine. It's especially good, almost essential, for adhering sax felts, or any felt for that matter as it doesn't 'soak' into the felt. Some repairers use it for installing pads and cork and, as far as I know, the results have been quite satisfactory for many, many years. Some wouldn't consider using anything else. The only reason I don't use it for pads is that I'm used to the white cement - and too set in my 'old dog' ways 
I occasionally ask another tech to check my work - just to keep me 'on my toes'. I suppose if, like some techs who visit here, you do a million horns a year, you don't need anyone to check your work. For me, and others striving toward perfection  exchanges like this are very helpful.
- ron b -
Post Edited (2003-06-06 06:55)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-06-06 10:25
Glue gun glue from a glue gun can be deceptive. It is so sticky on fingers, but the adhesion to cold metal can be very poor. It is also intolerant of a minute film of moisture, oil or another contaminant on a metal surface, whereas wiping contact adhesive on a surface exhibits just a little tolerance if cleanliness is not absolute. I use glue gun glue for some pads, but no a glue gun. I melt pellets of the glue inside the key cup, by heating the key cup itself. Then reliable adhesion is guaranteed.
Glue for felt: I pretreat my entire sheets of felt with "thixotropic" (yes, correct spelling) contact cement, which is paste-like and does not soak in, but seals the surface as it dries. Then I just use the usual contact glue on this surface. Glue gun for felt is a far messier process.
Any melt-type glue is suitable for cork pads, but bear in mind that cork is a lot more flexible than a bladder pad, so if the pad is not supported over the entire surface - no significant air bubbles - the pad seating may be unreliable. My preference is French Cement. I like it BECAUSE it doesn't stay plastic for too long, and because when it is heated in the pad cup it 'foams' (and these are not air bubbles - they collapse as the glue cools) so it is easy to 'float' the pad on this 'larva' and press the pad firmly into the cup during the last stages of plasticity of the adhesive, eliminating bubbles.
Adjustment of the alignment of a cork pad after installation, with a little heat applied to the cup, is a lot easier if the edges at the BACK of the pad are rounded prior to installation.
Post Edited (2003-06-06 10:28)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: DAVE
Date: 2003-06-06 16:33
Gordon,
Do you make your own cork pads or do you buy the ones from Ferrees? Also, do you have a preferred thickness for R-13 clarinets?
The reason for all of this is that to lower the pitch on my low C (A clarinet) I installed a thicker cork under my bridge key and thereby lowered the pad height. As a result of this, the tuning is now exceptable, but now as expected there is a buzz on low C and the E just above. I am assuming that cork pads will reduce the buzz. Do you agree?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-06-07 02:42
I do not use enough cork pads (apart from register keys) on clarinets to recall what thickness for a particular instrument. If a cork pad is too thick I slice away at the back until it is appropriate.
I use some ready-made pads, and for odd diameters (mainly for oboe) I cut my own, which is not so easy unless you have specialised cutters. The bought pads are of very high quality cork, whereas it is easy to have an entire sheet of cork that is unsuitable for making pads. One supplier sells cork with the grain going the other way, so the surface is clean, but I do not accept that it is OK to have severe grain blemishes just below that surface, as is often the case for this cork.
Another issue with cork pads is that the sizing is done based on the INSIDE of the key cup, whereas bladder pads have sizing based on the largest diameter of the pad, which is almost the outer diameter of the key cup.
For some instruments, especially if key cups align poorly with tone holes, cork pads are quite unsuitable because the tone hole contacts the cork VERY close to the edge of the cork.
The fuzzy sound you mention could be as a result of a rather loose pad membrane induced to vibrate, or from poorer effective venting resulting from the turbulence created by the tortuous route from the tone hole around the pad which you have located closer to the tone hole. If a cork pad has a sharp edge then this turbulence could be even greater than with a round-edged bladder pad. You may like to consider rounding the edge of your cork pad. Good luck!
For pitch flattening, you may like to keep the good pad venting (for tone reasons) and experiment with an application to the upper wall of the relevant open tone hole. Both nail polish and PVA glue are suitable. Both of these can easily be pushed off when they are set if they turn out to be inappropriate.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: jbutler ★2017
Date: 2003-06-07 03:48
I use the .110 thickness and float on a bed of glue. I use George's glue, but I don't think there should be a "heated" debate about which glue is better. I usually bevel the back of the pad with a very sharp razor blade and emory board. I also reface the cork using a very flat steel block and extra fine sandpaper which can usually be found at modeling shops. I start with 1200 grit and finish with 1800 grit. This process usually fills in pores also.
Gordon is correct that somtimes the seat gets very close to the edge of the cork pad. A shallow seat in the cork pad works better over time than a deep seat.
jbutler
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: BobD
Date: 2003-06-07 15:11
I recently ordered a set of hollow punches from Harbor Freight Tools....9 piece set for $5.99 plus sh.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: jbutler ★2017
Date: 2003-06-07 18:51
I've found that the punches sold by Harbor Freight, Wholesale Tool, JL Industrial, etc are not sharp enough to cut the cork satisfactorily. They usually tear through and leave the face unusable or tear along the outside edge. Ferree's sells pad cutters, but why when they are already available. It is very difficult to find sheet cork that is acceptable for cutting cork pads.
Just my two cents worth but do what you want.
jbutler
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: BobD
Date: 2003-06-07 21:06
Cork cuts best by shearing with very sharp thin blades. Therefore, commercial punches have to be honed and the cutting angle adjusted. Also its best to rotate them while cutting with light pressure. Thanks for the permission to do what I want.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: jbutler ★2017
Date: 2003-06-07 22:52
BobD,
You don't need my "permission" . Let me restate: I don't have the time to sit and punch out cork pads. It isn't worth the time for me. It is very difficult to find sheet cork of a grade that can be used to cut cork pads. Secondly, not all the sheet can be used. One has to cut around the imperfections. One can buy a dozen or more precut cork pads for about the same price as a sheet of AAAAA grade cork and not have to spend the time cutting them. However, I would not want to deter somone, by my remarks, who enjoys such activities.
jbutler
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: BobD
Date: 2003-06-07 23:15
jbutler: Obviously you have tried the Harbor Freight and other punches you mention. Perhaps you do not know how to use them properly. I enjoy the challenge of doing it myself, thank you, and your comments certainly won't deter me in the least.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: jim lande
Date: 2003-06-08 03:37
I have experimented a little with cork pads. I bought a few and have made a few from sheet cork. The pre-made ones were better quality cork than I have been able to find. I do like being able to bevel the sides and trim to height. I have shave some hot glue gun glue into the cups and heat the cusps with a volton induction soldering iron.
I know a local tech who absolutely hates the glue gun glue because you always seem to end up with these long filiments if you remelt the glue and pull a pad out. He detests those things. He claims it is harder to clean out of a cup.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: BobD
Date: 2003-06-08 13:06
jim, I agree. There are times when one does not have a precut cork pad handy so it's nice to be able to fashion one's own. Then,too,the punches are good for cutting paper fillers and leather. I've not used hot glue on anything "clarinetwise" except cases. It does have its place. Wouldn't it be handy if "they" would offer the standard cream and brown pad sticks in rounds for hot glue gun use?
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2003-06-08 13:38
You would think this is about bladder pads, since there is so much 'thin skin' floating in the thread.
Nothing wrong with using a method that works for you, that's a given.
Professionals that must budget their time in order to be profitable will gravitate toward the least expensive, most effective method available.
Ignore the FREE, advice from an experienced professional with a hard-won, positive reputation for excellence at your own peril.
Besides, my bench grinder is broken and I have a box of fresh Hydes!
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Clarence
Date: 2003-06-09 03:43
I buy cork pads from http://www.edmyersusa.com. Available in all natural cork precut from 7mm-15mm in standard thickness for Bb clarinet. You can use sandpaper to reduce the diameter and thickness for Eb clarinet and Oboe.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Mark Pinner
Date: 2003-06-09 06:07
Ban the hot melt glue gun!!!!!!!!!!! Shellac is good for cork pads. It sets nice and hard but is heatable to do adjustments. Wax is also OK for the same reasons. The only downside to shellac is coming up the sides of the pad and staining it. I repeat Ban the hot melt glue gun. Trying to clean that stuff out of pad cups is a nightmare! It also shrinks putting stress on the pad face.
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-06-09 13:53
I have recently had to change,reluctantly, to non-shellac glue because I have begun using a higher quality pad which seems to have a coating on the back which makes shellac an unreliable adhesive. I had no trouble for 20 years before using these pads. But I certainly don't use a glue gun for padding.
A good glue gun glue, such as the high temp 3M one sold by Kraus, certainly has far stronger adhesion properties if used appropriately. But that, to me, is about all it has in its favour.
Post Edited (2003-06-09 13:54)
|
|
Reply To Message
|
|
The Clarinet Pages
|
 |
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
.jpg){kind=small}
