 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: pkp
Date: 2003-06-02 21:22
i am a long-time lurker asking for suggestions and advice on what to do about my clarinet's intonation problems.
my clarinet is an obscure brand 'Jeffrey' from about 1965, it is wood and is marked 'made in France'. after a 25 year absence from playing, i picked it up again last summer, had it overhauled by a reputable shop and started taking lessons. after i regained some of my old skills, i joined a community band and have been playing with them since october (i am also continuing lessons, but less frequently).
the band tunes to A=440, and even with a 67mm barrel i have to pull way out to get my middle register to tune properly (i also use tuning rings or the throat tones sound really terrible). unfortunately even pulled out my low register is about 20 cents sharp on the tuner. my upper register is somewhat flat, but not as bad as 20 cents.
my instructor is having me work to adjust the pitch with embouchure changes, although so far i am finding this difficult on long tones and impossible on the fly. i tried a 'click' barrel over the weekend, but it only goes to 67mm and wasn't any better than my barrel. my instructor has tried my clarinet and says it is not in tune with itself. the technician at the shop where i tried the click barrel said the same thing. he also checked it for leaks and made a small adjustment to one key.
so - now that i have described the problem and the things i'm trying to do about it - what options do i have? please note that money is not in unlimited supply, although i might be able to get a good used instrument if there is no hope for my current instrument.
thanks in advance for your ideas,
paula
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2003-06-02 21:29
Sharp on top, and flat on the bottom - is that correct?
I wonder if you have a mismatch...
what are the lengths of each section?
It may be possible to improve tuning with a tapered barrel, but I would approach one of the repair folks or makers on this BBS.
Try Phil Muncy in North Carolina, perhaps he could sort this out.
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Author: pkp
Date: 2003-06-02 21:33
sorry if i wasn't clear enough. the instrument is sharp on the bottom and flat on the top when the middle register is in tune at =440. i dont have it with me at the moment so i can't provide measurements.
thanks,
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Author: pkp
Date: 2003-06-03 15:05
synonymous botch,
i checked the clarinet and the top and bottom joints both have the same serial number. it doesn't look like a mismatch - this is the way the manufacturer made the instrument.
thanks,
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2003-06-03 15:52
PKP - As a post to "1960 Noblet Clarinet" I threw-in some of my thots re: clar tuning and response as being influenced by bore-size matching of mouthpiece and barrel to a particular clar. Hopefully, others, with greater knowledge, may respond with further/specific suggestions. I do a sort-of trial/error intonation tuning myself on my best horns and other's. . Larry Guy has a VG booklet, available from Gary Van Cott [see Sponser's Page] on Intonation Tuning! Hope yours is a well-made clar, Luck, Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: Mark P. Jasuta
Date: 2003-06-04 00:34
Hi,
Try play open G and pull the barrel to adjust. Then play G top of staff and pull the middle joint to tune. Hopefully it may get you in the ball park. Check your bridge key for proper adjustment as well as leaks, tenons, pads etc.
Mark
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Author: bob49t
Date: 2003-06-04 06:26
pkp,
You didn't say whether you had the same problems 25 years ago with the same stick.
Have you tried any other instruments to see if they play with more tuning accuracy ?
It may be nostalgic to keep trying with your old friend, but why not ask to swap with one of your band neighbour for a couple of numbers, (keeping your own m/p of course) This will expose your clarinet to fresh opinions and you to possibly a more amenable set up.
It might throw up a m/p, clar mismatch, for instance (see multifarious postings) - which I suspect may be one of the problems, but if you have to "pull way out" for A=440 with a 67 there may be an "ultra high pitch" clarinet under that m/p
Try different m/p's
It may just be a revelation to you.
I have a colleague who cogitated long and hard on tuning problems which could not be solved by a tech, change of barrels, change of m/p etc. All to no avail.
He purchased a new set up and is now on cloud 9 with few, if any tuning problems.
This sounds a very similar problem.
"Sometimes biting the bullet is the best option"
I hope this might help, save you a lot of time and help you to play better in tune with your band colleagues.
Regards,
BobT
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Author: ken
Date: 2003-06-04 14:48
If it was me, I wouldn't even bother fencing with this instrument and get it fitted for a lampshade, particularly if it's in mechanically sound working order as stated. I'm even wondering if the horn is actually a 442? Something is very wrong if you're in a concert band on a 67mm, using tuning rings and still pulling out. Dumping money into quick-fix accessories on this horn could be throwing good money after bad, yielding little to no improvement. Other factors; if you’re coming back after a long period you’re re-building critical muscles in the embouchure. Blowing into a dead tree trunk and contorting in order to play in tune can potentially damage your chops, not to mention detract from making music and waste precious practice time.
In my experience, any horn that’s 20 cents either way on any note, even on the bottom end or throat tones is immediately rejected. There’s too many good one's out there, old and new at very reasonable prices that DO play in tune ... and playing in tune is always the bottom line especially in an ensemble setting. v/r Ken
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Author: Don Berger
Date: 2003-06-04 15:00
Well said, BobT and Ken, It does sound like a poorly made cl, seemingly pitched UP into B Nat? !! ?Almost like an old HP horn? Ken, many TKS for your help obtaining the RosenK. Don
Thanx, Mark, Don
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Author: pkp
Date: 2003-06-04 16:13
first, thanks to all who have answered so far!
mark, i'll try your tuning technique to see if it helps. when my band tunes we always tune both the concert a and concert f (for the brass). so i already know my open g is in tune when we check.
bob t, i read your post with particular interest as i think you make a number of excellent points.
- 25 years ago i was always sharp, and i can't ever remember being flat on the concert b flat we usually tuned with.
- an excellent suggestion about a temporary instrument swap (and it never even occurred to me). i will talk to one of my friends in the section and see about trying her instrument. she plays a buffet r13, so i know who is getting the better side of that deal.
- your comment about my 'old friend' really rings true with me. the silly thing is more than a hunk of wood with holes and keys. i probably am more nostalgic about it than i should be from a purely musical standpoint.
- your colleague's experience does seem to parallel mine. i guess that deep down i knew last weekend when i was trying barrels that i would have to break down and get a different instrument. admitting it has been the hardest part.
ken, although i care about my clarinet too much to turn it into a lamp, i think you're right about not throwing good money after bad. i don't know if it was ignorance 25 years ago or just a more mature attitude now, but i do recognize my responsibility as a band member to play in tune with the rest of the ensemble.
don, thanks also for your comments. i read the 1960's noblet thread and there is some interesting information, but i am sadly and rapidly concluding that getting a different instrument is my best (perhaps only) option.
now everybody -
do you have any suggestions about used instruments that are notoriously IN tune?
thanks,
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Author: BobD
Date: 2003-06-04 17:04
First, I'm inclined to agree with the "don't throw good money after bad" suggestion. My personal experience is that I haven't yet found any Bflat sop that is totally in-tune. If it were me I'd try-out some name brand horns, select the one I liked best and then "fool around" getting it acceptably in tune.
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2003-06-04 18:40
Take a close look at it. I suspect it may be a "Jeuffroy," not "Jeffrey." Jeuffroy made some half-way decent instruments. I have never heard of "Jeffrey" Clarinets. Of course, I have not heard of many other things, too.
Whatever it is, though, have you tried different mouthpieces? Sometimes a different mouthpiece can make a *big* difference. Wonder what MP you're using now?
My call is that a Clarinet built to A=442 will not be anywhere close to as tough as you have described when it comes to playing at A=440. YMMV.
Regards,
John
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Author: pkp
Date: 2003-06-04 23:55
john,
it is definitely 'jeffrey' although the 2 names are so close - i wonder if maybe one company made both and changed the spelling for the american market??? anyway the technician who did the overall has more than 40 years experience, and he stated that he had worked on a few other jeffreys during his career.
fyi, i play a vandoren b45 mouthpiece, using mitchell lurie 3 reeds and a rovner ligature. my instructor has a very different setup (although i don't know the details) and he had the same intonation problems.
btw - what does 'YMMV' mean?
thanks,
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Author: jbutler ★2017
Date: 2003-06-05 02:42
Jeffrey clarinets were stenciled by LeBlanc. I tend to believe that your intonation problems are created by the instrument. I also suggest that you trade "up" or "in" for another of better quality.
jbutler
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2003-06-05 14:33
Well, "Jeffrey" is new to me, but obviously not new to others.
Wish I could see that thing and try to understand better why the problem is so terrible, but that's life. Gee, I don't like to give up this easily, but it appears that jbutler has the secret: get a different Clarinet.
Regards,
John
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Author: Todd W.
Date: 2003-06-05 16:36
YMMV = Your Mileage May Vary. That is, you may get different results, or have a different experience.
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