 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Redhedclrnetist
Date: 2003-05-31 05:45
Ok... so I recently had to take my new Buffet (R13) clarinet to the repair shop for a minor repair. I don't really like taking my clarinets in to get fixed, because usually they will find something else wrong with it and, coincidentally, is an expensive repair. In this case my fears were confirmed.
When I picked up my clarinet from the shop, the guy informed me that my tone holes need sanding down or something like that. He said that new (Buffet?) clarinets always have this problem, and while it is currently playable, is not "perfect". He said it would cost from $30 to $80 to fix, depending on how many tone holes needed fixing. I wish I could remember what exactly needed doing, but he said he did some pressure tests on it and my clarinet failed all of them.
My question is whether this really is a common thing, and is it worth the money to get it fixed? It plays fine to me as is, so is 'perfection' necessary? The other thing he said is that his was the only shop around here that did this repair work, so do new wood clarinets always have this problem?
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Author: Wes
Date: 2003-05-31 06:00
Yes, Redhead, my experience is that any new instrument from the factory will have tiny chips out of the edges of the toneholes. These chips are so small that they can hardly be seen without magnification, at least by me. The result is small distributed leaks in many places in the instrument which will increase the resistance to playing and, if the leaks are big enough, affect the tuning.
Most repair shops don't know or care or can't afford to refinish the tonehole seats to eliminate these leaks. However, the clarinet, wooden piccolo, or oboe will always play easier and better with these leaks fixed.
You are fortunate to have found a repairperson who understands this situation. To me, the cost and effort is well worth it as the instrument will play better. However, as the clarinet ages, the pads wear out, and a new overhaul is needed, one will find that more chips have appeared and the toneholes will need to be micropolished to get rid of the new leaks. Such is life!
This is one of those iotas of improvement that are needed if one is to be a fine clarinet player. Good luck!
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Author: ron b
Date: 2003-05-31 06:38
Hi, Red --
You state, "The other thing he said is that his was the only shop around here that did this repair work,"... Nonsense!
This is your red flag alert. Clarinet toneholes do Not need to be "perfect" to seat well. Big chips and cracks cause problems, not microscopic ones.
Find a reputable repair person ASAP... since yours just attempted to insult your intelligence. Besides, to set the record straight, some repairers use a specialized pressure test apparatus for testing flutes, Not clarinets. The effectiveness of such a (flute) test is questionable at best anyway.
If a new R-13 indeed has the kind of tonehole problem the guy says it has, which is Highly Improbable, (you say it plays all right for you), exchange it immediately while it's still under warranty.
I brew a mean batch of really nice genuine triple-distilled snake oil I'd be happy to sell you. It cures all your clarinets woes immediately and makes you feel real good too ![[cool]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/cool.gif)
- ron b -
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Author: jbutler ★2017
Date: 2003-05-31 10:34
New? Warranty? I would take it to the dealer where you purchased the instrument and let them decide to repair or replace as needed.
jublter
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-05-31 12:18
There is a ring of contact that a tone hole makes with a pad. If the pad was made of a hard material like metal or glass, and there were slight blemishes in the tone hole edge, then the seal would be very poor indeed, because the width of that sealing ring would have negligible width, and would not accommodate the blemishes in the tone hole edge.
If the pads are made of a soft material that does not 'seat, or 'bed in', such as the silicon rubber of 'Norbeck' pads, then the tone hole edges would have to be relatively blemish-free and level.
However pads are normally made from materials that 'bed in', such as felt, cork (to a lesser degree) or a foamed polymer (e.g. Valentino). This means that the sealing ring is quite wide, say 1/2 mm for cork, and 1 to 2 mm for the other materials. This width is easily enough to accommodate small blemishes in the edge of the tone holes.
So I agree with ron b. The septic in me wonders if it is possible that this technician has bought some very expensive leak monitoring equipment, and is using the propaganda that comes with it, on you, to find a use for it.
Irrespective of how he detected the leaks, I think the first corrective attention should be given to inappropriately installed pads, or over-thick pads, or poor quality, porous-membraned pads. For pads that are normally open, it is almost the norm at present, with all qualities of clarinet, for new instruments to be set up with them closing tightly at the back but leaking at the 'front'.
Also, decades ago Buffet used very, very high quality pads. It seems to me that more recently their pads are made using very thin, brittle membrane, that is quite likely porous - more for show than for function. Perhaps Buffet is assuming that players will want their own choice of pad after purchase, so it is not worth installing good ones in the factory - something like the policy some makers seem to have with mouthpieces.
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Author: Avie
Date: 2003-05-31 14:50
Right on Ron b. It reminds me of the common problem of car repairs. This BB is an excellant place to discuss these clarinet problems before forking out a lot of money for unnecessary repairs. If during the manufacturing process the tone holes passed quality control inspection procedures the tone holes wouldnt have to be reworked. Is there any proof out there that microscopic flaws in the wood tone holes wouldnt possibly produce a better tone!
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2003-05-31 20:50
Why, the first thing I think of doing with a new Clarinet is knock a few tiny chips out of the seating edges of the tone holes. That might make it sound and play better, y'know. And, of course, fool around a bit with the crow's foot adjustment, too. And while you're at it, tighten down that throat G# screw. It's most likely loose. They all come out of the factory that way.
Who on Earth ever thought the seating of a pad had to be really good, anyway? As long as you can't hear hissing when you blow through the thing, who cares? And why do you need to have that F/C pad flopped down automatically, anyway? Hey, you've still got two little fingers, right? So, use 'em! And *anybody* can play low Chalumeau tones with no leaks in the UJ. It takes real skill and practice to do it when there's a big extra hole just downwind from the speaker key pad.
A *perfect* Clarinet? Who needs it!?
On the other hand, the comments of the repair person did seem like so much hooey.
Regards,
John
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Author: ron b
Date: 2003-06-01 04:25
The repairer's comments Were hooey, John and I love your sense of humor. Personally, I smooth out the tone holes with a fingernail file ![[rotate]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smiley25.gif)
Gordon - I've seen and touched the flute vacuum testing device. It's a little vacuum pump with a guage and a 'wand' with a hole in it and two "O" rings that act as a seal and the wand is connected to the pump by a flexible tube. It works okay on smooth straight bore flutes by isolating the pad that's leaking. It doesn't identify Where the leak is or accurately tell you How Much it's leaking. It costs something like $300-400 (USD).
Anyone can make a very accurate feeler for pennies.
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Author: abrogard
Date: 2003-06-01 10:52
I like reading all the postings.... but 'sceptics' fellers, not 'septics', I hope.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-06-01 15:03
Actually I had 'skeptic', but the spell checker, in my haste, changed it to 'septic'.
Mark will eat you if you comment on spelling. And me for responding. Rule No. 7 - top of the page.
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Author: Mark Charette
Date: 2003-06-01 15:21
Gordon (NZ) wrote:
> Actually I had 'skeptic', but the spell checker, in my haste,
> changed it to 'septic'.
You can always edit your own post later. I thought "septic" was apropos ... ![[grin]](http://test.woodwind.org/clarinet/BBoard/smileys/smilie5.gif) .
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2003-06-01 17:06
I'm surprised they didn't offer you Undercoating at a discount, too...
Any procedure that corrects a defect YOU CANNOT DETECT with a procedure that YOU CANNOT VERIFY amounts to one thing -
Vote with your feet, and shop elsewhere.
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2003-06-01 17:28
I cannot dispute the possibility that your instrument may need its tone holes polished.
On the other hand, his statements sound tantamount to suggesting you need to have your lightning rods charged.
Regards,
John
who will shut up now (i think)
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Author: Vytas
Date: 2003-06-01 23:26
Redhedclrnetist wrote:
**When I picked up my clarinet from the shop, the guy informed me that my tone holes need sanding down or something like that.**
sanding down??
Tiny chips out of the edges of the tone-holes should be FILLED and then leveled/polished without altering original dimensions of the tone hole. Altering a tone-hole by sanding might lead to alteration of tuning. Usually these tiny chips are wood grain pattern and not chips after all and sanding will not help here.
Some of the top players want their clarinet tone holes treated this way because pads will make a perfect seal with the SLIGHTEST TOUCH of the key. If you play passages at speed 200 miles per hour there is no time for PRESSING the key.
Perfectly finished tone-holes, perfectly seated pads, perfectly adjusted springs will make a perfect clarinet. Does an average player need to be bothered with this? I don't think so!
Vytas Krass
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Author: diz
Date: 2003-06-01 23:35
As to dodgy tone holes - what does the manufacturer say about this - if it's a fault - then doesn't it get repaired (free of charge) for the duration of the warranty period?
Without music, the world would be grey, very grey.
Post Edited (2003-06-01 23:41)
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-06-02 00:22
Mark Charette wrote
<You can always edit your own post later. I thought "septic" was apropos ... .>
LOL!
Thanks for the editing advice. Perhaps I'd better leave it now.
This discussion of tone hole edges concerns a matter of degree. All competent repairers fill significant irregularities in tone holes.
Another angle is that if the edge is grain-sealed, smoothed, and polished, the smoother surface may well result in pads lasting longer.
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Author: abrogard
Date: 2003-06-02 01:00
Sorry about transgressing rule 7 - you've found me out, it's obvious I didn't read them. I'll fix that as soon as I possiblee kan.
This tone hole thing is interesting. It is all about perfection, really, isn't it? And as Vytas says we don't usually need it. Because most of us are not perfect.
But the whole clarinet forum tends to focus on perfection. Advocating mouthpieces, barrels, reeds - extolling the virtues of this or that exponent - when the majority of the world is actually playing with second or third grade equipment in a second or third grade manner. The hoi polloi.
And the non-playing part of the world is largely indifferent to it all - only a small proportion of it electing to be an audience at any one time for any one player or group of players.
And even amongst the players whole sections are indifferent to or even don't like the playing of other large sections.
People - players and non players - even claim to not like whole massive areas of music and will not listen to a note if they can avoid it - i.e. the great jazz/classics/pops worlds gulfs.... if that sentence makes sense.
So what we've got is something like motor car enthusiasts in their different camps where they get down to arguing about the thickness of the chrome plating on the air cleaner....
In that context the 'repair man' is expected to take seriously hairs breadth adjustments and endless technically involved arguments about minutiae. And keep his private opinions to himself, if he's wise.
Maybe our clarinet repair man that talked to Redhed in the first place was of this ilk, operating in that scene. Ask him if he plays the clarinet (or rebuilds cars).
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Author: Redhedclrnetist
Date: 2003-06-02 05:06
Haha! Y'all are hilarious. Thanks a bunch for your comments; you have the same general opinion about it as I do.
Who cares? My clarinet plays well, and seeing as how I'm only in high school, it doesn't matter if it's perfect because I'm probably playing on a broken reed anyway so does it matter if my tone holes make a perfect seal? If I were to play a solo at a concert would someone come up to me afterwards and say, "Excuse me, but if you don't mind, I'd like to suggest that you take you instrument in for tone hole work because it sounds like they have some leaks." I don't think so...
But, on the other hand, maybe the work would make a world of difference and I don't know what I'm missing. I have only played on about five clarinets in my life, two being plastic. I suppose I could check the warranty and all that but it doesn't seem to be that big of a deal.
But I feel like a real dodo head going there anyway, because the 'minor repair' I talked about was a stuck swab. Evidently cotton ones can get stuck inside there real bad; in this case the swab was history and it cost $15 to fix. *Shames self*
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-06-02 05:59
For perfect tone hole sealing, get a plastic clarinet again! LOL!
(I've just extracted, partly in little pieces, a cleaning rag from an oboe, using my modified biopsy tool. A much more interesting challenge than extracting clarinet rags.)
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Author: Mark Pinner
Date: 2003-06-02 10:05
I am a repairer. In a full service, tone hole levelling is included; it is not rocket science. Clarinets, saxophones, bassoons or whatever. So is a quick valve (sight) alignment on all brass including rotors.
In the good old days tone hole finishing was not all that necessary on new instruments. The manufacturers took some pride in their work. The current crop of Buffet's ie. from the last 6 to 8 years have little quality control! Corporatisation is a wonderful thing.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-06-02 10:19
I can't argue with that. And aren't the pads weak! A very thin, brittle membrane in conjunction with rather rough tone hole edges = pads cutting out in a year or two.
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Author: Clarence
Date: 2003-06-02 21:05
I'm going to have to agree with WES on this one.
The attention to detail on a repair will make a difference. Most techs will not spend the time. Count me as one who regularly inspects tone holes with a magnifing glass.
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Author: ron b
Date: 2003-06-02 21:51
Most techs I'm acquainted with routinely inspect toneholes on even the smallest, most routine jobs (not full service). You can pretty much tell visually, and/(or?) by a quick play-test, which ones need attention and those that are better left alone. I find that with a leak light in a not-to-brightly-lit room a trouble spot can be detected without too much difficulty; my eyesight is not all that great anymore either.
I didn't mean to imply in previous responses that being particular will make no difference. On the contrary, when being as meticulous as you are, Clarence, the horn is bound to be as good as it will ever get when you're done with it
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