 The Clarinet BBoard
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-06-01 00:51
Altering the pressure between the lower lip and the reed would seem to slightly affect pitch, perhaps because increased pressure against the reed effectively reduces the length that is freely vibrating.
Compared with open G, where finger pressure is not involved, pressing down the L.H. first finger for throat G & A, and for F#, increases the pressure of the reed against the lower lip, presumably making these notes sharp.
Pressing down only the thumb key (F) reduces the pressure between the reed and lower lip, presumably making this note flat
For other fingerings the pressure can be controlled by the balance of forces applied by thumbs, and the fingers.
Another factor affecting the degree of change of pitch for these notes would be the spring tension of the keys concerned. The higher the spring tension, the more finger force is needed.
What I sometimes ponder is....... do clarinet designers allow for this changing pressure phenomenon when they are locating tone holes and choosing the diameter and venting of such holes for pitch considerations.
Post Edited (2003-06-02 10:16)
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Author: sömeone
Date: 2003-06-01 02:53
Well good thesis gordon......it seems that manufacturers oblidge this small but important problem of all woodwind instruments. I've read somewhere from the net (didn't keep the address, sorry!) that good clarinet manufacturers does keep in mind of this point. I think it was someone writing a report concerning clarinet and saxophone motuhpieces which mentioned the above problem.
My point is, the fingering problems do not effect drastically performance and playing, good players for perfect intonation often practise every note till by slightly altering aspects of the embouchure, throat, tongue, position of mouthpiece capture etc. But lets just have the pros decide.
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Author: Morrigan
Date: 2003-06-01 08:36
To me, you work for hours and hours to eliminate this problem in the fingers. It's called having evenness in the fingers. Then, to further eliminate this problem, you work on evenness in the wind. How you are holding the instrument and making use of the thumbrest is also important.
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2003-06-01 13:15
You have got to be kidding.
Maybe this would be serious, if you were squeezing The Stick into sawdust.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-06-01 14:59
Morrigan & Synonymous Botch, what I describe has nothing to do with "evenness of fingers", or crushing the instrument.
It has to do with the instrument being supported by the right thumb at a fulcrum, and certain notes UNAVOIDABLY producing a clockwise 'moment' (looking from the left side) about this fulcrum, while another note UNAVOIDABLY produces a clockwise moment.
The springing of the keys and the nature of the pads (friction etc) determine a MINIMUM finger or thumb pressure and MINIMUM value for these moments, and increasing the finger/thumb pressure beyond the minimum simply increases the magnitude of the respective moments.
As long as there is a resultant moment whose magnitude and direction changes, there is a changing pressure against the lower lip.
Basic mechanics.
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Author: Avie
Date: 2003-06-01 16:00
Clarinet R & D engineers are always researching ways to design a better instrument. There are sites on the internet that explain this in detail. You are simply having the same thoughts every student encounters while studying the clarinet. Bare in mind that every player and instrument is differant and not perfect. Relax and enjoy the music that you are producing rather than confusing the issue. Sometimes its practice and sometimes its rest that we need. Maybe a few lessons from a qualified teacher can help with your turmoil. Good luck.
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2003-06-01 17:42
Gordon, I think such things are important to *good* Clarinet designers. That does not refer to such world-recognized design studios as "German Engineering" and "French Engineering," though.
You know that any good Clarinet player will accustom him/herself to an instrument's nuances after playing it for a while. One tends to compensate automatically for an instrument's intonation shrtcomings. And I'll wager that many Clarinetists, having begun playing on a new instrument, find their intonation compensation has to be so different, they immediately think they have been playing a piece of junk -- when actually it's just that the new one is different from the old one, perhaps no better.
Yours is a question best reserved for the likes of Tom Ridenour, but there's no doubt in my mind he *does* consider such things, plus a lot more that we never think about.
Regards,
John
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Author: saxlite
Date: 2003-06-01 17:57
Finger pressure CAN slightly alter intonation-greater finger pressure closes pads and reduces the effective depth of tone hole chimneys, causing a slight reduction of tone hole volume. This causes the pitch to go slightly sharper.
I sometimes use this effect to raise a note on my saxophone (which is how I discovered this effect in the first place). I would expect the same effect from pushing your finger tips deeper into the open hole keys. Don't know about the "rotating moment" effects.......
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Author: BobD
Date: 2003-06-01 22:07
Gordon, I cringe with you that some don't appreciate your point or experience. Personally I doubt that those who engineer clarinets today(for the major concerns) get down to such fine points. Most of us who have played for years probably compensate for this variation without consciously realizing it.
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Author: Synonymous Botch
Date: 2003-06-01 23:39
Hey BobD.... that's exactly the point.
There are so many other things to work with playing the horn well, this sort of concern will prove a trap for developing players;
who should go practice, now!
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-06-02 00:13
Thankyou BobD & JMcCawlay. I thought I had explained my query quite clearly, but from some responses I certainly failed to communicate.
The issue I raise is just a matter of interest. It is not a problem I am particularly having with my own playing, which is negligible at present. I am not a beginner.
The phenomenon I raise has nothing to do with pressing pads into tone holes, saxlite, although if one did the calculations I think that one would find, particularly with sax, that the change in pitch from pressing a pad a fraction of a millimetre further into a tone hole would be so slight as to be not perceivable by the player. So when you close a key harder you may well be using the phenomena that I DO describe, affecting lip pressure, the effect of which on tuning is quite significant.
For those who have told me to practise more, this is not an issue of practice. It is an issue of WONDERING whether accommodation of the phenomenon I describe is by the player (very likely subconsciously, by embouchure adjustment note by note) or by the designer of the instrument (by the design and placement of the tone holes involved.)
If it is the former, then it is a significant issue for experienced players who are evaluating instruments different (in model or maker) from their current one, as JMcCaulay explains. If it is the latter, but only for some manufacturers, then it is again a major issue for experienced players evaluating or switching instrument.
Synonymous Botch.... Perhaps you misunderstand too. This is not a minor issue for playing a clarinet well. It is an issue of to what extent a player has to accommodate poor tuning that could have been corrected at the design stage. It is on a par with an athlete having to learn to run in an awkward way (hence limiting success) to accommodate poorly designed shoes.
BTW the phenomenon I describe affects fingerings involving the top two side keys also - indeed any fingerings where the pressure from the lower lip is the ONLY force holding the mouthpiece in contact with the upper teeth.
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Author: Clarence
Date: 2003-06-02 04:19
I use a pad on the mouthpiece to counter the effects that you describe.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-06-02 06:02
I don't see that that would not make a scrap of difference. How does such a pad alter the force transferred from the first finger or thumb to the lower lip? Perhaps you misunderstand too.
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Author: Morrigan
Date: 2003-06-02 07:07
I THINK I know what you're talking about, but I'm not entirely sure.
Are you saying that, for example, thumb F, may cause you to push the mouthpiece UP from the lower lip, thus altering intonation? And you're saying that this also happens on other notes, i.e F# etc.?
I would take two sides to this.
I would say yes it happens. Because some notes I feel 'stable' on (By that I mean holding the clarinet) but sometimes some notes feel like I'm going to drop the instrument. The only way to accomidate this is to 'grab' the mpc harder.
On the other hand, a player should train so that no single fingering feels different on the whole, physically.
...Still not sure if I understand your theory!
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Author: graham
Date: 2003-06-02 08:11
Assuming a good clarinet is tuned by a person playing it into a tuning meter then that will automatically compensate for the phenomenon described, assuming such a phenomenon does affect all players (or all players equally etc.). Even if a clarinet were not to be play tuned, experience of playing them post manufacture would feed into the dimensions adopted by the manufacturer. Even though the issue may not be appreciated for what it is (or might be) I cannot see how the manufacturer would fail to take it into account in practical terms.
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Author: Gordon (NZ)
Date: 2003-06-02 10:16
Graham, I like your ideal world. Indications seen in current 'top' instruments suggest that instrument making is far from this ideal world.
Morrigan, I think you have the idea but you wrote, "On the other hand, a player should train so that no single fingering feels different on the whole, physically." The issue is one of inconsistent pressure applied by the reed against the lower lip, depending on which note is played. This inconsistency cannot be altered by training of the fingers.
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Author: Mark Pinner
Date: 2003-06-02 10:28
I think the essence of playing is in keeping total control, evenness and flexibilty of the scale. It is what wind players strive for. If it changes pitch for mechanical reasons, change it back for artistic reasons. I sense obsession here!
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2003-06-02 14:03
Quite an interesting discussion which raises a few points which may be of interest to some. Most players tend to deal with a great deal of tension in the hands....
Whether this affects the pitch the way described is somewhat along the line of conjecture...I think a tense pressure against the instrument by the hands will actually tighten the embouchure and therefore raise the pitch only for a short duration.
I also think that hand or finger pressure of the nature described means the player has a real technical fault that most be examined by a professional teacher....any type of change in pitch by the force or use of the fingers in any way I feel is pychological in nature....unless of course a lowering of the fingers to lower pitch over tone holes which is for a purpose of flattening a sharp note.
The real test is to not support the weight of the clarinet when playing and then see what occurs pitch wise....
Any change in the pitch by pressure of the fingers may be a result of a neural transmission from the hand to the brain to the embouchure. Consequently I think pad height and the way the cups sit will only marginally affect pitch for a hort duration.
Remember when we start a tone initially it usually is high and then lowers as a result of the lessening of oxygen in the air column.
the hands have a great effect on pitch especially when the player allows them to. Alot of players press so hard with the fingers, they may begin a cycle of biting and this leads to either incredible sharpness of pitch or unsteadiness of pitch......
I have seen numerous students play with such heavy hands that i wonder whether or not its worth it for them to continue under such strain. If its bad for the hands then what happens to the embouchure? Its only logical that the two interface in such a way to produce that unyeilding heavy airy open band sound that makes us cringe....
The student also should examine hand position as a factor as well. If the hands are too high from the keys then faster music will require "grabbing" at the keys which is similar to biting for high notes except from the hand perspective. Try breaking a student of these problems!!! Not easy!
Certainly a more pro active approach from teachers, conductors and band directors is of great help. So many times students in band practice a passage over and over again to no avail simply because a teacher never said-"keep the finger over the respective keys"....
somewhat irritating to me, and seen more often then one would care to...
David Dow
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Author: D Dow
Date: 2003-06-02 14:05
To test the hands have the clarinet weight supported on a desk at a comfortable playing position....
David Dow
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Author: ginny
Date: 2003-06-02 16:21
Interesting thought. I note that I support my clarinet's weight at two points the thumb rest and at the mouth piece and that one must decompose the force of gravity depending on the angle the clarinet is at.
The point of balance for the'fulcrum' at the thumbrest is heavily dependent on the angle the clarinet is held at, however I don't see much left-right rotation since my thumb is paralelle to the ground and the keywork seems reasonably balanced. I would hope that the up/down balance point is similar to the most favorable angle for tone and emboucher!
I think that between the thumbrest and mouth the instrument is supported at two points, and provided one isn't a finger slammer the weight of the instrument and support from the embouchere likely over comes the impact of the thumb when it arrives.
It seems obvious that merely covering the hole should require much less force that gravity in the plane(s) and with good finger work the sound should not be changed to a notable degree. I am certain that covering the hole rather than pressing on it is desired, for a variety of technical reasons. All the more reason to play with soft hands.
I can imagine that some testing could be worked out to empirically detect the tiny changes in pressure on the reed that occur.
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Author: ginny
Date: 2003-06-02 16:25
Another way to put it, a body at rest tends to stay at rest... hopefully the finger work is light enought to not overcome the inertia of the clarinet's weight such to any significant degree.
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Author: Dan Shusta
Date: 2003-06-03 00:21
Gordon, IMO, I believe ginny is on the right track. I have found in my work that a smaller pad requires only around 1 to 1.5oz of pad pressure to effect a good seal. Larger pads require just a bit more...around 2oz of pad pressure. Then again, the type of pad used really has quite an affect on the pad pressure required to seal well.
Also, in my experiments, I have found that the human finger seals very poorly. On the upper section, I have plugged all of the holes with neoprene plugs leaving only one open tone hole with my pressure gauge inserted at the bottom. After closing the tone hole with a finger, it is very interesting to see the pressure gauge go up to 3oz of pressure and come down fairly quickly. Adding extra pressure does slow the descent somewhat. But, no matter how hard I press my finger against the tone hole, I can never equal the sealing of a neoprene plug.
Now, as to your F and F# dilemma. When playing F with my left thumb, I have found that the pressure of my teeth resting on the top of the mpc is sufficient to maintain the same pressure on the reed with my bottom lip.
As for the F# with the left hand, first finger... if the note is short, I would think even if it were a little sharp, because of the shortness of the note duration, IMO, it probably would not even be noticed. This leads us as to what to do with a prolonged F# note. I have found that putting my left thumb just under the F hole, on the body of the instrument, provides the necessary counterbalance to stabilize any possible movement.
Still, all in all, IMO, greater stabilization of the clarinet can be accomplished by installing pads that seal well with light pressure and readjusting the springs so that very little pressure is required to move the open pad and begin making contact with the body of the instrument.
All of the above makes me begin to wonder if wearing very thin rubber gloves would allow a person to apply less pressure to an open hole to affect a good seal...also, there would be no slippage on the keys due to perspiration. It may sound a bit silly...but I think it would work. I'll have to experiment with this idea.
I hope the above has been useful.
Dan
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Author: JMcAulay
Date: 2003-06-03 01:11
With the Clarinet supported by the R thumb, I don't think it makes a diddly-flotch if it is also supported by the bell on a table. If L1 presses down on the A key (or the G# key), the reed *will* have increased pressure on the lower lip -- albeit perhaps very slightly. I do not think the extra support could force the mouthpiece to be rigidly attached to the upper teeth.
Hmmm, perhaps that would be an interesting experiment. Glue the MP to the upper teeth and see how it works....
"This test is to be performed only by a professional mouthpiece rigidifyer. Do not try this at home."
Regards,
John
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